Calvinism's life and death problem

TomFL

Well-known member
Calvinism says unregenerate man is dead

He cannot have faith because he is dead

Calvinism says men must first be given life so he can have faith

The bible however says man must have faith so as to obtain life

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinism reverses the order and incorrectly teaches man must first be given life so as to have faith
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Calvinism says unregenerate man is dead

He cannot have faith because he is dead

Calvinism says men must first be given life so he can have faith

The bible however says man must have faith so as to obtain life

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Calvinism reverses the order and incorrectly teaches man must first be given life so as to have faith
Calvinism also adheres to the Temporal Order and agrees with your verses...

You agree that the Grace of God prevenes the Free Will; so why won't you accept that every Verse which says 'we can', means Grace is presumed to have already made a difference for your Will? The Starting-Pistol for the Race needs to fire before you can 'Experientially' Will to run the race as to win the prize...
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Calvinism also adheres to the Temporal Order and agrees with your verses...

You agree that the Grace of God prevenes the Free Will; so why won't you accept that every Verse which says 'we can', means Grace is presumed to have already made a difference for your Will? The Starting-Pistol for the Race needs to fire before you can 'Experientially' Will to run the race as to win the prize...
Calvinism hold life is before faith the very opposite the bibles claim
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Calvinism hold life is before faith the very opposite the bibles claim
Calvinism calls it Life, Arminians call it Enlightenment, and for Provisionalists the Word of God cuts them to the Heart. The Effect of Grace has many names...

We all hold to Grace prevening the Will, so when a Verse says we can believe, we need to admit that Grace should be presumed to have already made it's difference for us...
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
tom

Calvinism says unregenerate man is dead

He cannot have faith because he is dead

The bible says it. Man is dead in sin by nature Eph 2:1,5

And man naturally cant have faith because naturally we are in the flesh, totally 100 % and they which e so cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

And Faith that seeks and believes God pleases Him Heb 11:6


6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Calvinism says men must first be given life so he can have faith

Thats True, otherwise man is dead in sin, in the flesh and incapable of pleasing God, which Faith does. The opposite of being in the flesh is to be in the Spirit, which means the Spirit dwells in you by New Birth the author of Spiritual Life.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Calvinism calls it Life, Arminians call it Enlightenment, and for Provisionalists the Word of God cuts them to the Heart. The Effect of Grace has many names...

We all hold to Grace prevening the Will, so when a Verse says we can believe, we need to admit that Grace should be presumed to have already made it's difference for us...
Yes but the issue is life

Biblically faith precedes life
 

TomFL

Well-known member
As usual, we're close. So close that the Temporal Order might as well be the same...
Its an extremely inportant point

If as the bible states faith precedes life- regeneration that Calvinism understanding of wher the fall left man

is an error
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Its an extremely inportant point

If as the bible states faith precedes life- regeneration that Calvinism understanding of wher the fall left man

is an error
Faith can't prevene Regeneration because Efficacious Grace prevenes the Will. It's Effect is the same no matter what it's called. If a grandfather calls a boy his grandson, a father calls the same boy his son, and another boy calls him brother; the boy is still the same person. ~ Efficacious Grace is the same no matter what we call it. What did God's Efficacious Grace do to/for you? Did the Law and the Gospel cut you to the Heart?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Faith can't prevene Regeneration because Efficacious Grace prevenes the Will. It's Effect is the same no matter what it's called. If a grandfather calls a boy his grandson, a father calls the same boy his son, and another boy calls him brother; the boy is still the same person. ~ Efficacious Grace is the same no matter what we call it. What did God's Efficacious Grace do to/for you? Did the Law and the Gospel cut you to the Heart?
The bible say it does

That is the point of the op

Regeneration is what makes a dead sinner alive

Verses were quoted showing faith makes alive

Prevenient grace must be other than regeneration
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
The bible say it does

That is the point of the op

Regeneration is what makes a dead sinner alive

Verses were quoted showing faith makes alive

Prevenient grace must be other than regeneration
Every verse that says we can come, needs to presume Grace has already cut us to the heart. John 20:31 doesn't deny Regeneration prevening Faith but recognizes that the New Birth is two-fold; IE the Washing of Regeneration and the Renewing of the Human spirit. The Grace of Washing is Illumination/Cutting to the Heart/the New Birth. Justification through Faith is the Renewing of the spirit. Faith is in the middle of Washing and Renewing; not before or after them...
 
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civic

Well-known member
Its an extremely inportant point

If as the bible states faith precedes life- regeneration that Calvinism understanding of wher the fall left man

is an error
If both sides are being completely honest there are scriptures that support both sides. Some show life/regeneration/ the spirit precedes faith and others faith precedes life.

I believe its a matter of perspective. Gods vantage point is the spirit precedes and ours is faith.

This is where I see the dilemma coming from IMHO is a matter of perspective. I believe Calvinists lean on the Divine vantage point whereas the Non C groups lean upon the human POV.

Some might say it cannot be both and I say what can't it be both ?

It could be a paradox much like the Trinity or the 2 natures in Christ. Why can't salvation and the how factor be a paradox as well ?

hope this helps !!!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Every verse that says we can come needs to presume Grace has already cut us to the heart. John 20:31 doesn't deny Regeneration prevening Faith but recognizes that Regeneration is two-fold; IE Washing and Renewing. Justification through Faith is the Renewing of the spirit. Faith is in the middle of Washing and Renewing...
Of course it does

Regeneration makes alive

The bible shows faith makes alive

Faith therefore precedes regeneration

its logically inescapable
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If both sides are being completely honest there are scriptures that support both sides. Some show life/regeneration/ the spirit precedes faith and others faith precedes life.

I believe its a matter of perspective. Gods vantage point is the spirit precedes and ours is faith.

This is where I see the dilemma coming from IMHO is a matter of perspective. I believe Calvinists lean on the Divine vantage point whereas the Non C groups lean upon the human POV.

hope this helps !!!
No I do not believe that

There are no verses which put regeneration (life) before faith
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
If both sides are being completely honest there are scriptures that support both sides. Some show life/regeneration/ the spirit precedes faith and others faith precedes life.

I believe its a matter of perspective. Gods vantage point is the spirit precedes and ours is faith.

This is where I see the dilemma coming from IMHO is a matter of perspective. I believe Calvinists lean on the Divine vantage point whereas the Non C groups lean upon the human POV.

Some might say it cannot be both and I say what can't it be both ?

It could be a paradox much like the Trinity or the 2 natures in Christ. Why can't salvation and the how factor be a paradox as well ?

hope this helps !!!
Well said. At the end of the day, it's an argument over the legitimacy of Compatibalism. Otherwise you have to pick a side...
 

civic

Well-known member
No I do not believe that

There are no verses which put regeneration (life) before faith
Sure there are as Paul says in both Ephesians and Colossians where we were dead in sin, Christ made us alive. The dead do not have faith not the capability to have faith since they are dead on not alive.

Tom try and just let those passage speak for themselves and not read any anti-calvinist ideas into them.

hope this helps !!!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Sure there are as Paul says in both Ephesians and Colossians where we were dead in sin, Christ made us alive. The dead do not have faith not the capability to have faith since they are dead on not alive.

Tom try and just let those passage speak for themselves and not read any anti-calvinist ideas into them.

hope this helps !!!
The Verses are why I mostly argue Theology and definitions; because pretexts are chosen. I've done pretty well with him by using the definition of Grace...

It's another reason I always say these are the Theology Boards, not the Bible Verse Board. We all have Verses...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sure there are as Paul says in both Ephesians and Colossians where we were dead in sin, Christ made us alive. The dead do not have faith not the capability to have faith since they are dead on not alive.

Tom try and just let those passage speak for themselves and not read any anti-calvinist ideas into them.

hope this helps !!!
No that would be an assumption

Dead just means separated not in a corpse like condition

John was not addressing people already alive when he stated

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

It is not possible to read John as telling people with life they need to believe to get life

This scripture pure and simple without bias

and this verse cements it

John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”

regeneration being born again makes one a child of God

here it is preceded by receiving Christ (that is believing)
 

civic

Well-known member
The Verses are why I mostly argue Theology and definitions; because pretexts are chosen. I've done pretty well with him by using the definition of Grace...
Agreed yet to say those passages are placing faith prior to regeneration is putting the cart before the horse. Logic alone says one who is dead cannot believe without life.
 

civic

Well-known member
No that would be an assumption

Dead just means separated not in a corpse like condition

John was not addressing people already alive when he stated

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

It is not possible to read John as telling people with life they need to believe to get life

This scripture pure and simple without bias

and this verse cements it

John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”

regeneration being born again makes one a child of God

here it is preceded by receiving Christ (that is believing)
Tom we can both "cherry pick" passages to support our views I'm sure you would agree on that possibility right. even though you disagree with our interpretation.

You have to change the meaning of dead to come up with a person that can believe apart from God placing life into that person first.
 
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