Calvinists, how do you know that you are saved?

Impossible they were never of us for if they were of us they would of never left us. Read about that truth in 1 John.

No such thing as a Christian turned atheist only an atheist turn Christian.

next................................

any ore oxymorons for us today ?

hope this helps !!!
So as it relates to the OP, how do you as you are right now, know that you are not an atheist turned Christian? You certainly cannot predict the future. The current atheist who 10 years ago claimed to be saved and practiced everything mentioned in this thread as evidence they were saved, just didn't realize that they were not actually saved?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So as it relates to the OP, how do you as you are right now, know that you are not an atheist turned Christian? You certainly cannot predict the future. The current atheist who 10 years ago claimed to be saved and practiced everything mentioned in this thread as evidence they were saved, just didn't realize that they were not actually saved?

All that tells me is that YOU are the one who "can't know if he is saved" or not.
 
You just hypothesized again. You don't KNOW they WERE Christians because you cannot know if another person is genuinely converted. Allusions to proper doctrine "don't a Christian make."

That and you won't address the words of Christ, that's the real "avoidance."
You are correct that I cannot know if someone is genuinely converted. I am not speaking however of what I know. I am speaking of what the individual knows at the time they believed they are saved. There exist very people who genuinely believed they were saved and would testify it to a crowd similar to how you or I have. And then come some time passing, are now atheists. So how can anyone know they are genuinely saved if we cannot predict the future? You yourself could be an atheist in 10 years. You and another here have said that in this instance they were never actually saved. So where did they mess up when they thought they were saved? How can you know for sure right now you are saved? Everything you or anyone says about how you know you are saved is the same thing that that atheist 10 years ago said for how they knew they were saved at that time. So therefore it doesn't hold water.
 
Romans 8:28-30 makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR those God foreknew————>He also glorified. So, those He saves will be glorified on the day they are resurrected. Jesus also said He would lose NONE the Father gave Him. I believe Him and His word, so should you.
I agree with you but that is your confusion. Foreknowledge does not equal predestination.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have been a member for quite a long time but have not been on in a good amount of time and then found the forums to be redone and having to start over. That being said, I don't think you answered my question. I am saved myself and very aware of how to know that I am saved but I find that should be rather difficult for a Calvinist if they believe in predestination.

So you can be sure you're saved.
But you don't seem to think anyone ELSE can know that they are saved.
I guess you think you're REALLY special then, don't you?


So how can you be so sure you're saved?
Okay, let's assume you know you're saved.
Then let's say that "predestination" is true (since it's Biblical, Rom. 8, Eph. 1).

Did you just STOP "knowing if you're saved"?
Or does God's predestination not factor into your knowledge of being saved?
I think it's obvious that it is the latter.
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member

#144 I have agreed that your original question was a good question and followed the entire thread. It does, however, that your direction is more complicated than a simple answer to what was a simple question. You have shaken off Sola scriptura as a acceptable basis for someone to know that they are saved and seem to want another answer to your question. Now you have agreed with #164 here:

Our Lord's God said:
The answers which Calvinists give are very telling.

True followers of Jesus know because God HImself personally and directly tells them.

You can't get a better authority on the matter can you?


So perhaps you are only agreeing with the first line of his response 'The answers which Calvinists give are very telling.' Or perhaps you are agreeing with the entire statement. Either way, you are seemingly emphasising an inner witness over the outer witness of the Scriptures. What you may be mistaken in that implication is that a person must have an inner witness if their outward conduct and love of Christ measured in obedience to the gospel itself is lacking yet their reading of the Scriptures is a convincing witness both in their minds and in the hearts. I think it is a mistake to sift other believers in that way and then to really arrive at an answer to your question.

You have even spoken about bringing atheists onto this OP and asking them to testify that years ago they were Christians and now they are atheists. You have also asked brethren to explain how they know they are saved now when they cannot see into the future. That character of questioning others gives a direction to your words that implies that either there is no way for some Christians to know, and thereto, Calvinists may not be Christians who have any peace of God that stills their hearts and minds and surpasses understanding. I could explain. myself at some length and politely define how a person can and does know how they are saved and you may assume that the answer would either repost Calvinist theology or else establish some other less systematic theology. I cant see any reason to do that really because I am not pursaided that bearing witness of Christ in the way I could do would not amount to an error in judgement on my part. What I can tell you is that when I was converted those Calvinist precepts that others seem to so hate were the very fabric of what proved to be true in my own conversion.

Why are you asking? For what purpose? If you need to settle something in your own walk then I would be happy to bear witness in terms that would answer your question in full. But I have to tell you that despite the radical character of my own conversion in 1984 I utterly depended on the Scripture to guard against the wiles of the devil and to settle even the very character of how I was converted in the first place. A person can be radically saved and even meet with God but that will not stop the devil from trying to rob them of their peace. And I believe that was actually in essence what @ReverendRV said himself. So believers quietly walk into the gift of faith and Christ becomes alive to them in a way that cannot be easily defined and perhaps you may want to consider that Calvinism and the emphasis on trusting the Word of God - a reformed precept - cannot be removed not in the least part.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
#144 I have agreed that your original question was a good question and followed the entire thread. It does, however, that your direction is more complicated than a simple answer to what was a simple question. You have shaken off Sola scriptura as a acceptable basis for someone to know that they are saved and seem to want another answer to your question. Now you have agreed with #164 here:

Our Lord's God said:
The answers which Calvinists give are very telling.

True followers of Jesus know because God HImself personally and directly tells them.

You can't get a better authority on the matter can you?


So perhaps you are only agreeing with the first line of his response 'The answers which Calvinists give are very telling.' Or perhaps you are agreeing with the entire statement. Either way, you are seemingly emphasising an inner witness over the outer witness of the Scriptures. What you may be mistaken in that implication is that a person must have an inner witness if their outward conduct and love of Christ measured in obedience to the gospel itself is lacking yet their reading of the Scriptures is a convincing witness both in their minds and in the hearts. I think it is a mistake to sift other believers in that way and then to really arrive at an answer to your question.

You have even spoken about bringing atheists onto this OP and asking them to testify that years ago they were Christians and now they are atheists. You have also asked brethren to explain how they know they are saved now when they cannot see into the future. That character of questioning others gives a direction to your words that implies that either there is no way for some Christians to know, and thereto, Calvinists may not be Christians who have any peace of God that stills their hearts and minds and surpasses understanding. I could explain. myself at some length and politely define how a person can and does know how they are saved and you may assume that the answer would either repost Calvinist theology or else establish some other less systematic theology. I cant see any reason to do that really because I am not pursaided that bearing witness of Christ in the way I could do would not amount to an error in judgement on my part. What I can tell you is that when I was converted those Calvinist precepts that others seem to so hate were the very fabric of what proved to be true in my own conversion.

Why are you asking? For what purpose? If you need to settle something in your own walk then I would be happy to bear witness in terms that would answer your question in full. But I have to tell you that despite the radical character of my own conversion in 1984 I utterly depended on the Scripture to guard against the wiles of the devil and to settle even the very character of how I was converted in the first place. A person can be radically saved and even meet with God but that will not stop the devil from trying to rob them of their peace. And I believe that was actually in essence what @ReverendRV said himself. So believers quietly walk into the gift of faith and Christ becomes alive to them in a way that cannot be easily defined and perhaps you may want to consider that Calvinism and the emphasis on trusting the Word of God - a reformed precept - cannot be removed not in the least part.
I mean the only trustworthy Word of God is the Bible. If an Angel, or Jesus, preaches any other Gospel; let him be Anathema...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I agree with you but that is your confusion. Foreknowledge does not equal predestination.

Romans 8 doesn't speak of "foreknowledge" (the noun).

Romans 8 speaks of God "foreknowing" (that's a verb, with God DOING something).

And according to BDAG, and other lexicons, when the object of God's "foreknowing" (ie. what he DOES) is a "person", the meaning is "CHOOSE in advance".

God is not "passive" in "foreknowing" (the verb), He is ACTIVE.

And no, "foreknowing" is not the same as "predestining".
They are intimately related, but they are distinct from one another.
 
#144 I have agreed that your original question was a good question and followed the entire thread. It does, however, that your direction is more complicated than a simple answer to what was a simple question. You have shaken off Sola scriptura as a acceptable basis for someone to know that they are saved and seem to want another answer to your question. Now you have agreed with #164 here:

Our Lord's God said:
The answers which Calvinists give are very telling.

True followers of Jesus know because God HImself personally and directly tells them.

You can't get a better authority on the matter can you?


So perhaps you are only agreeing with the first line of his response 'The answers which Calvinists give are very telling.' Or perhaps you are agreeing with the entire statement. Either way, you are seemingly emphasising an inner witness over the outer witness of the Scriptures. What you may be mistaken in that implication is that a person must have an inner witness if their outward conduct and love of Christ measured in obedience to the gospel itself is lacking yet their reading of the Scriptures is a convincing witness both in their minds and in the hearts. I think it is a mistake to sift other believers in that way and then to really arrive at an answer to your question.

You have even spoken about bringing atheists onto this OP and asking them to testify that years ago they were Christians and now they are atheists. You have also asked brethren to explain how they know they are saved now when they cannot see into the future. That character of questioning others gives a direction to your words that implies that either there is no way for some Christians to know, and thereto, Calvinists may not be Christians who have any peace of God that stills their hearts and minds and surpasses understanding. I could explain. myself at some length and politely define how a person can and does know how they are saved and you may assume that the answer would either repost Calvinist theology or else establish some other less systematic theology. I cant see any reason to do that really because I am not pursaided that bearing witness of Christ in the way I could do would not amount to an error in judgement on my part. What I can tell you is that when I was converted those Calvinist precepts that others seem to so hate were the very fabric of what proved to be true in my own conversion.

Why are you asking? For what purpose? If you need to settle something in your own walk then I would be happy to bear witness in terms that would answer your question in full. But I have to tell you that despite the radical character of my own conversion in 1984 I utterly depended on the Scripture to guard against the wiles of the devil and to settle even the very character of how I was converted in the first place. A person can be radically saved and even meet with God but that will not stop the devil from trying to rob them of their peace. And I believe that was actually in essence what @ReverendRV said himself. So believers quietly walk into the gift of faith and Christ becomes alive to them in a way that cannot be easily defined and perhaps you may want to consider that Calvinism and the emphasis on trusting the Word of God - a reformed precept - cannot be removed not in the least part.
I appreciate the thoughtful input. Let me attempt to clarify for you. First of all, I agree with all 3 statements you made about Calvinist answers being telling, followers of Jesus knowing because God Himself directly tells them, and the scripture is the ultimate authority. My issue is purely and only in regard to predestination and how it relates to it being impossible for an individual who believes in predestination to accurately know if they are saved without being able to predict the future. They may fully believe they are saved at any time, but the atheists who formerly believed they were saved, argue profusely against this notion. That is the crux of it all. And no answer to this problem has yet been given. I am very aware of how a Christian in general may know they are saved and I would wholly agree with all methods mentioned in this thread of how an individual can know for themselves.

As for my purpose, it is not to clarify something in my own walk. It is to point out one of the flaws of Calvinism and attempt to show the much more biblical version of people having free will and being able to choose to accept the forgiveness of Jesus or not.

1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member
I mean the only trustworthy Word of God is the Bible. If an Angel, or Jesus, preaches any other Gospel; let him be Anathema...

I was referring to #21 specifically, 'Okay. I know I'm Saved because he who promised is Faithful.' That could only have a reference to reading the Scripture else from whence did you know that Christ is faithful (Hebrews 10:23). That was my context in citing your name and no other context. I should have written a book to reference every clause! As I said to @Post Tribulation I have read the entire OP.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I am very aware of how a Christian in general may know they are saved and I would wholly agree with all methods mentioned in this thread of how an individual can know for themselves.

So it sounds like you are saying that even though predestination is Biblical, you utterly reject it, since you think if it's true, then you can't know you're saved, and so you find it inconvenient to accept it.

Sorry, that's not how it works.

As for my purpose, it is not to clarify something in my own walk. It is to point out one of the flaws of Calvinism

... then you have failed miserably.

and attempt to show the much more biblical version of people having free will and being able to choose to accept the forgiveness of Jesus or not.

Except that you haven't even BEGUN to demonstrate "free will" from the Bible (because you can't). You simply ASSUME it.

1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

Well, if "all people" here means "all individuals" (hint: it doesn't), then your god is a colossal failure. He tried to save, but failed for many.

I worship a God, THE God of the Bible, who did not fail to save EVERY sinner for whom Christ died.
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member
I appreciate the thoughtful input. Let me attempt to clarify for you. First of all, I agree with all 3 statements you made about Calvinist answers being telling, followers of Jesus knowing because God Himself directly tells them, and the scripture is the ultimate authority. My issue is purely and only in regard to predestination and how it relates to it being impossible for an individual who believes in predestination to accurately know if they are saved without being able to predict the future. They may fully believe they are saved at any time, but the atheists who formerly believed they were saved, argue profusely against this notion. That is the crux of it all. And no answer to this problem has yet been given. I am very aware of how a Christian in general may know they are saved and I would wholly agree with all methods mentioned in this thread of how an individual can know for themselves.

As for my purpose, it is not to clarify something in my own walk. It is to point out one of the flaws of Calvinism and attempt to show the much more biblical version of people having free will and being able to choose to accept the forgiveness of Jesus or not.

1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

Not wishing to be picky but, the 3 statements were not mine, but @Our Lord's God used them and I simply quoted him.That is of course a semblance of pickiness but if you are going to ask such questions as you yourself have done and genuinely anticipate any fruitful answers you must at least use your words more carefully. Not my word made about Calvinist answers being telling because that projects them onto me, they are another mans words. A simple and obvious point no doubt but believe me when you want to take Calvinism to task you are going to have to be far sharper in your use of language.

You didn't say why you agreed with @Our Lord's God other than by inference. More to the point you removed the need to explain anything or else to bear witness to the Lord because you explained 'My [your] issue is purely and only in regard to predestination and how it relates to it being impossible for an individual who believes in predestination to accurately know if they are saved without being able to predict the future' and then went on to say, 'As for my purpose, it is not to clarify something in my own walk. It is to point out one of the flaws of Calvinism and attempt to show the much more biblical version of people having free will and being able to choose to accept the forgiveness of Jesus or not.'

And so I am at least free not to share what I could share to answer your question. For that at least I am grateful. God Bless and I hope you get an answer or at least the proof you desire to settle your disquiet of Calvinism in the terms you have indicated and as challenged in the Scripture you quoted in 1 Timothy 2:3-4, as you presently understand that passage.
 

Beloved

Member
Adrian Rogers said, “Before I got saved I was running to sin; now I am running from it. And if I fail, I turn right around and start running away again”

Even though Pastor Rogers has been gone since 2005 I still have access to his sermons as his church posts them every Sunday on TV.

1 John 5:11–13:
“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

John 10:28–29
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand”

“If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)


I know I read, and study, my Bible more, I repent because the Holy Spirit causes me to recognize my sin instantly. I don't want to be ashamed before Jesus. I recognize He wants me to follow His commandments. I recognize I did none of this but He did it all. I pray every day to fully trust in Him and to have that trust increased. I believe and trust God's word in Scripture. As example the above Scripture.

It isn't my feelings that tell me I'm saved but those Scriptures do. That may appear to some as too simple an explanation but I am probably a little simple.

If I absorb posts from many in here perhaps I will grow even at my advanced age. But I will still check Scripture against what anyone says

There aren't enough words to say that we serve a wonderful God.
 

rhomphaeam

Super Member
Adrian Rogers said, “Before I got saved I was running to sin; now I am running from it. And if I fail, I turn right around and start running away again”

Even though Pastor Rogers has been gone since 2005 I still have access to his sermons as his church posts them every Sunday on TV.

1 John 5:11–13:
“And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

John 10:28–29
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand”

“If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9)


I know I read, and study, my Bible more, I repent because the Holy Spirit causes me to recognize my sin instantly. I don't want to be ashamed before Jesus. I recognize He wants me to follow His commandments. I recognize I did none of this but He did it all. I pray every day to fully trust in Him and to have that trust increased. I believe and trust God's word in Scripture. As example the above Scripture.

It isn't my feelings that tell me I'm saved but those Scriptures do. That may appear to some as too simple an explanation but I am probably a little simple.

If I absorb posts from many in here perhaps I will grow even at my advanced age. But I will still check Scripture against what anyone says

There aren't enough words to say that we serve a wonderful God.

 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Because in these last days God has spoken to us through the prophets and Apostles. You can never know that you are hearing Jesus any other way; even if he quoted the Bible because Satan does that too as an angel of light...

Sola Scriptura...

You really are lost aren't you?

In these last days, God has spoken to us IN A SON. Hebrews 1:1-2

His sheep hear HIS voice and they follow HIM.

If you do not have the Spirit of Christ then you are none of his.

It does not say, "Those who are led by ReverendRV's interpretation of the Scriptures, these are sons of God" does it?

It says, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." They are taught by God by His Spirit.
 
Not wishing to be picky but, the 3 statements were not mine, but @Our Lord's God used them and I simply quoted him.That is of course a semblance of pickiness but if you are going to ask such questions as you yourself have done and genuinely anticipate any fruitful answers you must at least use your words more carefully. Not my word made about Calvinist answers being telling because that projects them onto me, they are another mans words. A simple and obvious point no doubt but believe me when you want to take Calvinism to task you are going to have to be far sharper in your use of language.you fo
So noted. I do apologize for the misrepresentation. Do know that it was purely accidental. Thank you for the feedback.
You didn't say why you agreed with @Our Lord's God other than by inference. More to the point you removed the need to explain anything or else to bear witness to the Lord because you explained 'My [your] issue is purely and only in regard to predestination and how it relates to it being impossible for an individual who believes in predestination to accurately know if they are saved without being able to predict the future' and then went on to say, 'As for my purpose, it is not to clarify something in my own walk. It is to point out one of the flaws of Calvinism and attempt to show the much more biblical version of people having free will and being able to choose to accept the forgiveness of Jesus or not.'
Is an explanation required other than simply because I believe them to be true? I think that would be the default position when someone says they agree. If someone wants further depth than that they are free to ask for it and I'd do my best to elaborate.
And so I am at least free not to share what I could share to answer your question. For that at least I am grateful. God Bless and I hope you get an answer or at least the proof you desire to settle your disquiet of Calvinism in the terms you have indicated and as challenged in the Scripture you quoted in 1 Timothy 2:3-4, as you presently understand that passage.
That is a shame as I was hoping that someone of the Calvinist realm would be willing or able to answer this predicament.
 
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