Can a convertible "deconvert" into a basic sedan? Can the 4th letter of the alphabet D-convert to the letter C?

It was a six-paragraph say-so, not a say-so supported by six paragraphs of evidence.

By the way, what sort of evidence COULD be given to support a belief that a Christian cannot deconvert to being an atheist? I've got an idea. Since you're so big on evidence, YOU present some evidence that that a Christian CAN deconvert to being an atheist.
 
By the way, what sort of evidence COULD be given to support a belief that a Christian cannot deconvert to being an atheist? I've got an idea. Since you're so big on evidence, YOU present some evidence that that a Christian CAN deconvert to being an atheist.
Typical apologist ploy - "prove me wrong, then!"

The point is that it's a matter of definition - a Christian as you define it cannot decovert.

But yours is not the only definition.
 
I do not doubt that one can change one's mind about Christianity. But to willingly choose to reject the Light of Christ which illuminates all that is, was or ever will be and to return to the dark dungeon of a corrupt and fallen world in which one detects no redemption, well, that seems to me to require a spiritual masochism, the existence of which I cannot fathom.
Maybe this is where your problem lies. I've listened to a fair few deconversion stories online and I'm not sure people willingly choose etc but rather struggle with their doubt, not wanting to let go of what's been at the heart of their lives for a long time. These periods of struggle can last years, but then a tipping point is reached where the evidence for Christ being the Son of God is no longer is enough to maintain belief, and that's a matter of epistemology. When you don't think the evidence is enough, it's not a choice to disbelieve because a choice would mean two viable options. If you think there isn't a viable option, there isn't a choice about what to believe.
There's a lot more to a conversion than changing your mind about a theological doctrine. You can't think your way out of a rebirth any more than you can think your way out of your first birth.
Why not? That's what seems to happen, that people don't think the evidence good enough to maintain belief.


 
Correct. "Because I said so" would indeed be a weird kind of denial. Tell me who's making it and we'll go after him together.
It is you stiggy, but you are so much in denial, you cannot see it!

This whole thread is you pretending people do not leave Christianity, and your whole argument seems to be based on analogy. A frog cannot go back to being a tadpole, therefore a Christian cannot go back to being an atheist. No reason for us to suppose the situations are analogous - except that you need them to be for your denial.

Meanwhile, reality shows that actually a lot of people are leaving Christianity.
 
Typical apologist ploy - "prove me wrong, then!"

... says the guy who's asking me to prove him wrong, ignorantly oblivious to the irony.

The point is that it's a matter of definition - a Christian as you define it cannot decovert.

.... says the guy for whom it is a matter of definition, i.e.a Christian as he defines it CAN deconvert, ignorantly oblivious to the irony.
 
Maybe this is where your problem lies. I've listened to a fair few deconversion stories online and I'm not sure people willingly choose etc but rather struggle with their doubt, not wanting to let go of what's been at the heart of their lives for a long time. These periods of struggle can last years, but then a tipping point is reached where the evidence for Christ being the Son of God is no longer is enough to maintain belief, and that's a matter of epistemology. When you don't think the evidence is enough, it's not a choice to disbelieve because a choice would mean two viable options. If you think there isn't a viable option, there isn't a choice about what to believe.

Why not? That's what seems to happen, that people don't think the evidence good enough to maintain belief.

No. Christians are those who have EXPERIENCED the reality of the risen Christ, not just given mental assistance to a belief in Him. Do you have a brother or sister? If so you believe in them from experience. Can you deconvert to being a disbeliever in them?
 
It is you stiggy, but you are so much in denial, you cannot see it!

Then copy/paste where I said, "Because I said so."

This whole thread is you pretending people do not leave Christianity, and your whole argument seems to be based on analogy. A frog cannot go back to being a tadpole, therefore a Christian cannot go back to being an atheist.

Correct. They cannot.

No reason for us to suppose the situations are analogous - except that you need them to be for your denial.

No. Christians are those who have EXPERIENCED the reality of the risen Christ, not just given mental assistance to a belief in Him. Do you have a brother or sister? If so you believe in them from experience. Can you deconvert to being a disbeliever in them?

Meanwhile, reality shows that actually a lot of people are leaving Christianity.

No. Why did you present two videos showing something I have never denied and in fact mentioned in my OP, i.e. that some people change their opinions about Christianity?
 
No. Christians are those who have EXPERIENCED the reality of the risen Christ, not just given mental assistance to a belief in Him.
My point wasn't that they just give mental assistance to belief, but that they give mental assistance to deconversion.
 
I guess I need to explain why I put "deconvert" in quotes. I touched a little on that a few days ago and in doing so I must have somehow expressed my thoughts in a manner contrary to CARM rules since it got me banned for five days. So I'm back in hopes that I can express my thoughts on the subject in a less offensive way.

Not approaching it this time from a theological position perhaps I can head off the hackneyed "no true Scotsman" responses. I will not be declaring a doctrine here, specifically that "if one 'deconverts' it is proof they never converted." I will however reiterate that merely changing an opinion is not a deconversion. The former involves a change of mind, the latter a change of essence. If a bullfrog decides that he is no longer a bullfrog he cannot deconvert to a tadpole.

I will only attempt here to explain why from my own experience it is very difficult for me to wrap my head around deconversion. I can however understand "I used to believe in God, but I no longer do," since as an agnostic I went through many changes of mind from agnostic to theist and back again. But that was mere mental assent. My heart remained hardened to a belief in a Personal God with Whom I could relate.

When I was 26 years old, I underwent a change that affected the entirety of my life, not just a change of mind akin to believing in life on other planets or some such. It was as if I awoke from a dream and for the first time faced a world vibrant with reality. It was like my previously black & white world had not only been colorized in a way that would put Ted Turner to shame, but it had elevated from 2D to 3D. The Light not only shone on the external world but on my inward world as well, illuminating all my sins and revealing the amazingness of the amazing grace that dealt with them. My suffering was not replaced by joy; it TURNED INTO joy. It still does. I suffer more now than I ever did before age 26, but I never knew then that the unspeakable joy which springs from such suffering and in which my life is now grounded was ever even possible.

OK, enough of that. I could go on and on trying but most likely failing at describing the impact of my conversion, but why give 5wize the opportunity for shallow mockery? I haven't even mentioned the PERSONAL touch of Jesus Christ as the ultimate cause of all I've typed. I'm not proselytizing here with any illusion that I can convert others. I just wanted y'all to understand why I find it hard to swallow these "deconversion" anecdotes. I do not doubt that one can change one's mind about Christianity. But to willingly choose to reject the Light of Christ which illuminates all that is, was or ever will be and to return to the dark dungeon of a corrupt and fallen world in which one detects no redemption, well, that seems to me to require a spiritual masochism, the existence of which I cannot fathom.

There's a lot more to a conversion than changing your mind about a theological doctrine. You can't think your way out of a rebirth any more than you can think your way out of your first birth. Sure, you can repress the Light (don't know why you'd want to) and you can even shake your puny fist at Him, and if so will have to deal with the consequences of a judgement worse than if you'd never been reborn, but I can't imagine why you would. It'd be like a freed slave cursing William Wilberforce. Why would he?

Lets say you have an experience that you frame in a certain way based upon the information and understanding that you have at the time.
Later someone explains to you a different way of understanding that experience, based upon other information, that you think makes more sense. Does that mean you never really had the experience?
 
Lets say you have an experience that you frame in a certain way based upon the information and understanding that you have at the time.
Later someone explains to you a different way of understanding that experience, based upon other information, that you think makes more sense. Does that mean you never really had the experience?

Do you have a brother or a sister? If so, do you believe in their existence because of "the information and understanding" that you have received or because you have experienced their reality? Do you consider it even possible that someone can "explain to you a different way of understanding" all those experiences "based upon other information that you think makes more sense?" If so, you have a very weak and strange sense of reality. If not, then you may have an inkling of the degree of perceived reality in my own experience with the Living God.
 
Pay attention. I am disputing the very existence of ex-Christians.
I want to talk about what the bible says on this subject, but I won't.

I have a friend who was converted but has lapsed back into sin though she still believes in God. What would you call her?
 
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