Can a person have the Holy Spirit and not know it?

[Manfred]

I think you're also using the term "indwelt" to be synonymous with "sealed." Is that correct? Not being petulant, just clarifying...It can be argued that they are synonymous.

Correct. Sealed = Indwelt
16 I pray that according to the wealth of his glory he will grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, 17 that Christ will dwell in your hearts through faith, so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love

I'm in favor of institutionalizing the shaking of the building...like tinkling the sleigh bells in a Catholic mass...

Rather I was trying to make a distinction.

The apostles were breathed on by Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, would you agree at that time, they were sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit

If you do, it follows that after this event they remained afraid and were uncertain what to do. They decided to take action and started casting lots to choose a new Apostle. They were afraid, but stayed in Jerusalem as instructed.
Then on Pentecost, the Spirit fell upon them, and again after they were beaten by the Jewish leadership, they went back, and the Spirit fell on them again.

So I am trying to make a distinction between already being saved, and then subsequently having the Spirit of God fall on you.

This is biblical correct?

I'm not quick to assert that Phillip did not lay hands on the eunuch, just because Luke does not mention it. Phillip was there in Samaria, when the apostles completed the work he had started. I don't think he so quickly forgot...and this cannot be proven from silence. I believe it is a specious argument that only apostles laid hands on folks for the baptism of the Spirit. Miracles were being performed in Galatia in Paul's absence. He speaks of them.

So we have to look at two instances with Philip

He did not lay hands on the Samarians, and therefore it stands to reason that he did not lay hands on the Eunuch.
So what we gather from this, is that as Peter and John laid hands on the Samarians (Who were already saved/infilled by God through the word and baptism Philip brought)
The falling of the Spirit on them happened when Peter and John laid hands on them.

From this we can deduce some things
1. Laying on of hands is not required for salvation
2. Laying on of hands, by a person in authority leads to the Spirit falling.
3. The Spirit can fall as the gospel is preached:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.

I'm missing your point...Before Peter came, he had been baptized. What is your opinion? Sealed by that act? Or not sealed...?No...anointing is Spirit, of which Apollos knew nothing. I'm quite dogmatic here: Luke differentiates between the baptism of John, by water, and the baptism of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit...and is careful to distinguish the one from the other.

12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.

Point made above, but we can move on from this. (Simon) Would you say those Samarians were saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the laying on of hands?

Apollos knew nothing of the Charismatic church. Priscilla and Aquila, Paul's partners in Corinth, having worked for three years with him there, were very familiar with the working of the Holy Spirit and His intent in a church body. That's why they sent Apollos off to Corinth (Achaia is the province of which Corinth is the capital), to further his own experience in a church already active. With his expertise in teaching, he was able to water Paul's work in Corinth...and stir up preferences and division within the church of which Paul wrote in his first epistle to them.

Ok, but prior to him being told the full gospel, was he (Apollos) saved (Sealed with/indwelt by) the Holy Spirit. What is your take on it?

 

[Manfred]

There is no difference in how you receive the Holy Spirit. Baptized with fire/a place filled with the Holy Spirit/indwelt/anointed. It is all up to the Spirit.

Once He is inside you, it is up to Him how much of His power He releases to you, and when and how often. Even some gifts require more power than others it seems. Pastors sometimes feel an extra anointing when delivering a sermon.

This is just a guess, but the Eunuch was a Gentile. The Spirit was first only for the Jews that were of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. Then imparted to the Samaritans by the laying on of hands only who were also sons of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob but in history had fallen into other gods. But the reason the apostles went was because they did not have the Holy Spirit yet. Just baptized. No hands were laid on the first Gentiles, Acts 10, Cornelius and his family, so it is possible, though not written about, the Eunuch received the Spirit all by himself then as he had already been baptized. I know I was all by myself, with no hands laid on me when I received. And the Spirit prompted me to be water baptized again for the fourth time. But for the right reasons for the first time.

So you are basically saying it depends on the amount of faith you are allocated...

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one of you not to think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but to think with sober discernment, as God has distributed to each of you a measure of faith. 4 For just as in one body we have many members, and not all the members serve the same function, 5 so we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another. 6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness.

I can agree with that.

 

[tbeachhead]

The seed in the parable is not the same thing as the seed of the Father.

You're certainly welcome to disagree...until He makes this suggestion to you. This is what I've been taught, and scripture confirms it throughout. Please don't accede, unless you see it too. I've been shown that everything comes to us in the form of a seed...and grows until we are filled with all the fullness of it.

 

[tbeachhead]

Just tossing some ideas around here...as they come to me reading your post.

Correct. Sealed = Indwelt
16 I pray that according to the wealth of his glory he will grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, 17 that Christ will dwell in your hearts through faith, so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love

OK...Again, the term "sealed" is not used here, and I can accept the interpretation you're making as not at all unreasonable. This is certainly a prayer that I pray for both of us, on a regular basis, thanking God for Paul each time.

Rather I was trying to make a distinction.

The apostles were breathed on by Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, would you agree at that time, they were sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit

Um...No...In fact, I agree they were breathed on and received His Holy Breath...as the actual Greek says. Since I do not understand why John relates this episode, but for its poetic beauty, in my understanding, it prefigures Pentecost, and is prophetic in nature. Since this is not when they were baptized with His Spirit, what happened on the day of Pentecost is the actual seal of the covenant. I'm not willing to argue this point, because interpretation that is this nuanced has little value.

If you do, it follows that after this event they remained afraid and were uncertain what to do. They decided to take action and started casting lots to choose a new Apostle. They were afraid, but stayed in Jerusalem as instructed.

Yes...that fear happened until the Spirit came into the Temple, on the day of Pentecost...and the fire down came and the priests all stood and began to minister. Up until that day, you do not read of so many thousands being saved at one sermon.

Then on Pentecost, the Spirit fell upon them, and again after they were beaten by the Jewish leadership, they went back, and the Spirit fell on them again.

Yes...and I still distinguish Pentecost...as first fruit...from the rest. I think there is reason to do so. I cannot say from experience that I know when He who is resident then fills me. I've yet to see thousands saved at my word...or my shadow heal.

So I am trying to make a distinction between already being saved, and then subsequently having the Spirit of God fall on you.

I'm even worse off. I'm not a "Once saved always saved" kind of guy. I'm more of a, "If you're saved, you always have been..." kind of guy, which would place your salvation before the dawn of time. I serve a God who knew the end from the beginning, and called for a "man after His own heart..." ten years before he was even born. That same guy wrote a psalm about how well God knew him before even a day had been written of him.

This is biblical correct?

It's defensible. I wouldn't argue...It's not at all damaging!

So we have to look at two instances with Philip

He did not lay hands on the Samarians, and therefore it stands to reason that he did not lay hands on the Eunuch.

I'd argue that he recognized his mistake in Samaria, and never made that mistake again. But I cannot prove it. I can prove that he went on, moved to Caesarea, and had several daughters who prophesied.

So what we gather from this, is that as Peter and John laid hands on the Samarians (Who were already saved/infilled by God through the word and baptism Philip brought)

You're using that term again...but it's interpretive only. There were already saved. You see, I agree...but "infilled" is not the same word as "sealed", and they were not yet Baptized. The seed had been planted. I guess it boils down to when the field becomes the orchard. If I've bought and sown the field, is it an orchard, though the seedlings have not yet sprouted?

The falling of the Spirit on them happened when Peter and John laid hands on them.

That is when the baptism of Jesus happens, and rivers flowed from their innermost being. You've pointed out that the apostles experience more than one "falling of the Spirit," but only one Pentecost.

From this we can deduce some things
1. Laying on of hands is not required for salvation
2. Laying on of hands, by a person in authority leads to the Spirit falling.
3. The Spirit can fall as the gospel is preached:

Therefore laying on of hands is not required for the baptism of the Holy Spirit...

And I'm cautious by the call to "authority." Ananias laid hands on Paul, and was never heard from again. Can we not suppose that that authority is upon all who believe?

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.

12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.

Point made above, but we can move on from this. (Simon) Would you say those Samarians were saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the laying on of hands?

If you understood my comments above, that point is moot. Salvation began when Light was pronounced over tohu wa bohu, at creation. The Holy Spirit is not confined to a chronology of requisite events it would seem.

Ok, but prior to him being told the full gospel, was he (Apollos) saved (Sealed with/indwelt by) the Holy Spirit. What is your take on it?

Apollos is my hero in any discussion like this...Apollos was clearly called. He was Alexandrian, which, if you understand what that means, he was tantamount to "Harvard/Oxford" educated. A certain pride when into an Alexandrian's credentials. And He had followed the "red thread" throughout the scriptures, making connections no one else had made...but he had missed Pentecost altogether. Hence, Priscilla and Aquila, who could even have been still working in Rome on Pentecost, had had more experiential Christianity with Paul in Corinth than Apollos could have possibly had. Yet, for boldness without the Holy Spirit, no one can argue that Apollos was wonderfully equipped, and in the process of time, he downloaded the necessary upgrade. But it's fascinating that, following that upgrade with Priscilla and Aquilla, he is sent off to Achaia...presumably to Corinth, to draw from a Charismatic well...and yet water where Paul had planted. It's a fascinating story. I don't think you need to know the "sealed and indwelt" part. I'm satisfied with a Calvinistic "predestined" here...and bound to continue to grow in strength and the knowledge of God. Was I too cryptic and verbose? Or does this make sense?

 

[CharismaticLady]

The apostles were breathed on by Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, would you agree at that time, they were sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit

If you do, it follows that after this event they remained afraid and were uncertain what to do. They decided to take action and started casting lots to choose a new Apostle. They were afraid, but stayed in Jerusalem as instructed.
Then on Pentecost, the Spirit fell upon them, and again after they were beaten by the Jewish leadership, they went back, and the Spirit fell on them again.

So I am trying to make a distinction between already being saved, and then subsequently having the Spirit of God fall on you.

This is biblical correct?

Very astute of you. Yes, there are two for those in ministry, which at the very beginning of the church was all believers to spread the Church. The eleven apostles received the first by Jesus after the resurrection and before His ascension in John 20 when Jesus breathed on them. But they still were afraid because the second filling is for POWER which they received on the Day of Pentecost while the other 120 receive their first filling, and the 120 received their second in Acts 4:29-31:

29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

Mark 16:16-18; First filling gifts for individual use.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11; Second filling power gifts for ministry and boldness for the profit of all in the congregational setting.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're certainly welcome to disagree...until He makes this suggestion to you. This is what I've been taught, and scripture confirms it throughout. Please don't accede, unless you see it too. I've been shown that everything comes to us in the form of a seed...and grows until we are filled with all the fullness of it.

It could be a good analogy, but the reason I can't see the seed as the Spirit here is because of the hard ground portion. That land has not been broken up by repentance to receive the seed in the first place; the number one prerequisite for Jesus to give you His Spirit. Acts 2:38 The seed there is His Word. We still can read His Word, yet not really understand it until we receive the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14. But reading His word is a good plow to break up the hardness of heart. The Word brings us to Jesus to repent.


Jeremiah 4:3
For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So you are basically saying it depends on the amount of faith you are allocated...

I believe everyone is given a measure of faith, and then it is up to us what we do with it. If nothing, we have only ourselves to blame. We cannot say God withheld the chance of salvation from me. It is all His fault.

After repentance which is the pathway to Jesus, and why John the Baptist came first to make the pathway straight, Jesus gives us His Spirit - the whole person full of power. And it is up to that person how much of that power He releases. As our faith grows through the Word of God, the release of power to understand the Word and to receive higher gifts and maybe even an office is given.

Good parents help nourish that faith, but bad parents can destroy it. I happen to live close to Nashville, TN and north Nashville is now being called "the killing fields" of young people. Gang members breeding new gang members being raised in single parent homes without the support of the male who fathers up to 20 kids with different mothers. Despair breeds despair, and they are not schooled high enough to break the pattern. Two parent homes make a world of difference, and are more likely to attend church where their kids have a chance to grow in faith.

 

[Manfred]

OK...Again, the term "sealed" is not used here, and I can accept the interpretation you're making as not at all unreasonable. This is certainly a prayer that I pray for both of us, on a regular basis, thanking God for Paul each time.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
2Co 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.
2Ti 1:14 Protect that good thing entrusted to you, through the Holy Spirit who lives within us.

 

[tbeachhead]

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
2Co 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.
2Ti 1:14 Protect that good thing entrusted to you, through the Holy Spirit who lives within us.

This is great. Thank you. I haven't examined Ephesians 1 this closely before, which establishes well your point.

 

[Gary Mac]

I personally don't think this is possible, since (being holy) the Holy Spirit would overwhelm our senses when He enters us.

When we read Matt 3:16 we see where God came to Jesus and spend up who He is in that man and He does the same in us all who will receive Him and you can't help but know if He is in you and you are in Him as one John 17, and you know very well if you are like Him or not and walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

It is unmistakable. Jesus was clear the kingdom of God doesn't come with observation it is within you. Luke 17:20-21.

 

[stjerome5]

I personally don't think this is possible, since (being holy) the Holy Spirit would overwhelm our senses when He enters us.

I agree. One is completely different when filled w/ God's Holy Spirit

 

[SteveB]

I personally don't think this is possible, since (being holy) the Holy Spirit would overwhelm our senses when He enters us.

I'd say this depends entirely on what you think being filled with the Holy Spirit is, and consists of.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 14, we read

1Co 14:32-33 WEB 32 The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, 33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints.

Furthermore, in Galatians 5, we read that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control.

Gal 5:22-25 WEB 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

So, I've always been taught that when God's Spirit indwells us, he restores our soul, psalm 23, and makes us new creation- 2 Corinthians 5:17.

He makes us whole.

So, I have to say.... I have never heard any teaching that says that by indwelling me, God overwhelms me.

Especially when Jesus said that he is gentle and humble.

Mat 11:29 WEB Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you will find rest for your souls.

Furthermore, in Isaiah 42, we read

Isa 42:1-4 WEB 1 “Behold, my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights: I have put my Spirit on him. He will bring justice to the nations. 2 He will not shout, nor raise his voice, nor cause it to be heard in the street. 3 He won’t break a bruised reed. He won’t quench a dimly burning wick. He will faithfully bring justice. 4 He will not fail nor be discouraged, until he has set justice in the earth, and the islands wait for his law.”


There's nothing that can find in the bible which says anything about God "overwhelming" me.

I've seen nothing in the bible which teaches us that God turns me into an automaton.

Jesus did say that by continuing to follow his teachings, we would learn the truth and the truth would set us free.

Joh 8:30-36 WEB 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him. 31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s offspring, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free’?” 34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

 

[squirrelyguy]

There's nothing that can find in the bible which says anything about God "overwhelming" me.

I've seen nothing in the bible which teaches us that God turns me into an automaton.

I don't think the Holy Spirit turns us into automats either. But while I do acknowledge that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control, I think that a person who is filled with the Spirit gives the appearance of being under a foreign compulsion. There are three places in the New Testament where being filled with the Spirit is contrasted with being drunk with wine.

- Luke 1:15 says of John the Baptist that he "shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb."
- The crowds who heard the disciples speaking in tongues on the Day of Pentecost thought they were drunk; Peter had to explain that they hadn't been drinking since it was only the third hour of the day.
- Ephesians 5:18 says "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit."

I think that the reason Scripture places being filled with the Spirit in opposition to being drunk with wine is because in both cases, the person loses their natural inhibitions. Thus, a person who is filled with the Spirit can sometimes be mistaken for being drunk.

 

[Caroljeen]

I personally don't think this is possible, since (being holy) the Holy Spirit would overwhelm our senses when He enters us.

He didn't overwhelm my senses when I received the baptism of the Spirit.

 

[SteveB]

I don't think the Holy Spirit turns us into automats either. But while I do acknowledge that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control, I think that a person who is filled with the Spirit gives the appearance of being under a foreign compulsion. There are three places in the New Testament where being filled with the Spirit is contrasted with being drunk with wine.

- Luke 1:15 says of John the Baptist that he "shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb."

Notice that it's states-- he shall not drink any wine or strong drink.
There's nothing that says anything about his being drunk. So this isn't a good example.

- The crowds who heard the disciples speaking in tongues on the Day of Pentecost thought they were drunk; Peter had to explain that they hadn't been drinking since it was only the third hour of the day.

Why? It says in the context, leading up to this verse.... they were speaking in foreign languages. Languages that were of the regions surrounding them.

- Ephesians 5:18 says "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit."

Yep.
We are to be controlled by God's Spirit, not alcohol. To be sober minded. To have a clear mind that is not clouded by alcohol.

That's not being overwhelmed by God's turning us into babbling idiots.

I think that the reason Scripture places being filled with the Spirit in opposition to being drunk with wine is because in both cases, the person loses their natural inhibitions. Thus, a person who is filled with the Spirit can sometimes be mistaken for being drunk.

What are the symptoms?
Losing their natural inhibitions...

Are they falling down, bouncing off walls, being rude and belligerent? Are they doing stupid? Hitting on others?
Perhaps you have a different perspective on drunkenness. Mine is firsthand experience, as well as watching people.

 

[Mik]

I believe everyone is given a measure of faith, and then it is up to us what we do with it. If nothing, we have only ourselves to blame. We cannot say God withheld the chance of salvation from me. It is all His fault.

After repentance which is the pathway to Jesus, and why John the Baptist came first to make the pathway straight, Jesus gives us His Spirit - the whole person full of power. And it is up to that person how much of that power He releases. As our faith grows through the Word of God, the release of power to understand the Word and to receive higher gifts and maybe even an office is given.

Good parents help nourish that faith, but bad parents can destroy it. I happen to live close to Nashville, TN and north Nashville is now being called "the killing fields" of young people. Gang members breeding new gang members being raised in single parent homes without the support of the male who fathers up to 20 kids with different mothers. Despair breeds despair, and they are not schooled high enough to break the pattern. Two parent homes make a world of difference, and are more likely to attend church where their kids have a chance to grow in faith.

So of course since you have 'His Spirit' and the 'whole person full of power' and since ' it is up to that person how much of that power He releases.' then you have been to your nearest hospital with a 'Children's Burn Center' to preach the Gospel and to heal those children of their burn injuries...or have you chosen to withhold releasing that power?

 

[tbeachhead]

So of course since you have 'His Spirit' and the 'whole person full of power' and since ' it is up to that person how much of that power He releases.' then you have been to your nearest hospital with a 'Children's Burn Center' to preach the Gospel and to heal those children of their burn injuries...or have you chosen to withhold releasing that power?

This is weird presumption, Mik....do you use this as an excuse to dismiss the doctrine of the Spirit in us?

The evidence seems to show that Jesus walked by the paralytic at the Gate Beautiful, the one Peter and John healed, each time He entered there, since the guy had lain there begging for alms for forty years.

There is. no evidence Jesus ever went to a leper colony even once, and to restore all the lepers there. On the other hand, nothing prevents me from laying hands on those in my immediate circle to heal them. I have heard testimony of Christians going into hospitals where they were allowed and praying.

Have you ever tried to go in to a hospital specifically to pray? There is this thing called security and protocol you have to get by. When I was a pastor, I was certified to come in and pray for folks who called for me to come in. I had to be inspected and certified first, like a schoolteacher does to be licensed.

 

[solomonF]

I think yes

 

[Mik]

This is weird presumption, Mik....do you use this as an excuse to dismiss the doctrine of the Spirit in us?

The evidence seems to show that Jesus walked by the paralytic at the Gate Beautiful, the one Peter and John healed, each time He entered there, since the guy had lain there begging for alms for forty years.

There is. no evidence Jesus ever went to a leper colony even once, and to restore all the lepers there. On the other hand, nothing prevents me from laying hands on those in my immediate circle to heal them. I have heard testimony of Christians going into hospitals where they were allowed and praying.

**Have you ever tried to go in to a hospital specifically to pray? There is this thing called security and protocol you have to get by. When I was a pastor, I was certified to come in and pray for folks who called for me to come in. I had to be inspected and certified first, like a schoolteacher does to be licensed.

Thanks for answering my question to another poster.
But you'll do for now.
There always seems to be an excuse (see above) why we don't see (especially with the technology we have today anything) the power of the apostles on display today from those who claim the same power.
I'm sure more excuses are forthcoming.

**That's one of the best excuses I've read to date!

 

[tbeachhead]

Thanks for answering my question to another poster.

I hope you don't mind. Your post made me think, as they often do.

But you'll do for now.
There always seems to be an excuse (see above) why we don't see (especially with the technology we have today anything) the power of the apostles on display today from those who claim the same power.
I'm sure more excuses are forthcoming.

**That's one of the best excuses I've read to date!

Go to where there is faith. Duplessis, who preached through the middle of the twentieth century, was the first to point out to me that miracles happen most where the crowds are too ignorant to know that scripture is no longer for today, that what happened to spread the gospel in Acts is not meant to ever happen again.

You will not catch on TV what happens in Muslim villages when a believer goes in and starts praying for the sick. There are several reasons for this, not the least of which is the preservation of life in an increasingly dangerous surveillance society.

But if you want to measure a testimony, pick up any one of the three books out by Robby Dawkins: Do What Jesus Did, Do Greater Works and Identity Thief. These are the best reads I've had in the last couple years, in the same category as God's Smuggler by Brother Andrew. The impact is powerful where the gospel is forbidden. Dawkins third is by far the best. When we finished reading it, my wife and I had to read it again before we started another book. It's the most practical invitation to a more profound degree of reckless faith that I've found.