Can a person have the Holy Spirit and not know it?

Manfred

Well-known member
I think you're also using the term "indwelt" to be synonymous with "sealed." Is that correct? Not being petulant, just clarifying...It can be argued that they are synonymous.
Correct. Sealed = Indwelt
16 I pray that according to the wealth of his glory he will grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, 17 that Christ will dwell in your hearts through faith, so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love
I'm in favor of institutionalizing the shaking of the building...like tinkling the sleigh bells in a Catholic mass...
Rather I was trying to make a distinction.

The apostles were breathed on by Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, would you agree at that time, they were sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit

If you do, it follows that after this event they remained afraid and were uncertain what to do. They decided to take action and started casting lots to choose a new Apostle. They were afraid, but stayed in Jerusalem as instructed.
Then on Pentecost, the Spirit fell upon them, and again after they were beaten by the Jewish leadership, they went back, and the Spirit fell on them again.

So I am trying to make a distinction between already being saved, and then subsequently having the Spirit of God fall on you.

This is biblical correct?
I'm not quick to assert that Phillip did not lay hands on the eunuch, just because Luke does not mention it. Phillip was there in Samaria, when the apostles completed the work he had started. I don't think he so quickly forgot...and this cannot be proven from silence. I believe it is a specious argument that only apostles laid hands on folks for the baptism of the Spirit. Miracles were being performed in Galatia in Paul's absence. He speaks of them.
So we have to look at two instances with Philip

He did not lay hands on the Samarians, and therefore it stands to reason that he did not lay hands on the Eunuch.
So what we gather from this, is that as Peter and John laid hands on the Samarians (Who were already saved/infilled by God through the word and baptism Philip brought)
The falling of the Spirit on them happened when Peter and John laid hands on them.

From this we can deduce some things
1. Laying on of hands is not required for salvation
2. Laying on of hands, by a person in authority leads to the Spirit falling.
3. The Spirit can fall as the gospel is preached:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.
I'm missing your point...Before Peter came, he had been baptized. What is your opinion? Sealed by that act? Or not sealed...?No...anointing is Spirit, of which Apollos knew nothing. I'm quite dogmatic here: Luke differentiates between the baptism of John, by water, and the baptism of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit...and is careful to distinguish the one from the other.
12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.

Point made above, but we can move on from this. (Simon) Would you say those Samarians were saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the laying on of hands?

Apollos knew nothing of the Charismatic church. Priscilla and Aquila, Paul's partners in Corinth, having worked for three years with him there, were very familiar with the working of the Holy Spirit and His intent in a church body. That's why they sent Apollos off to Corinth (Achaia is the province of which Corinth is the capital), to further his own experience in a church already active. With his expertise in teaching, he was able to water Paul's work in Corinth...and stir up preferences and division within the church of which Paul wrote in his first epistle to them.
Ok, but prior to him being told the full gospel, was he (Apollos) saved (Sealed with/indwelt by) the Holy Spirit. What is your take on it?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
There is no difference in how you receive the Holy Spirit. Baptized with fire/a place filled with the Holy Spirit/indwelt/anointed. It is all up to the Spirit.

Once He is inside you, it is up to Him how much of His power He releases to you, and when and how often. Even some gifts require more power than others it seems. Pastors sometimes feel an extra anointing when delivering a sermon.

This is just a guess, but the Eunuch was a Gentile. The Spirit was first only for the Jews that were of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. Then imparted to the Samaritans by the laying on of hands only who were also sons of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob but in history had fallen into other gods. But the reason the apostles went was because they did not have the Holy Spirit yet. Just baptized. No hands were laid on the first Gentiles, Acts 10, Cornelius and his family, so it is possible, though not written about, the Eunuch received the Spirit all by himself then as he had already been baptized. I know I was all by myself, with no hands laid on me when I received. And the Spirit prompted me to be water baptized again for the fourth time. But for the right reasons for the first time.
So you are basically saying it depends on the amount of faith you are allocated...

3 For by the grace given to me I say to every one of you not to think more highly of yourself than you ought to think, but to think with sober discernment, as God has distributed to each of you a measure of faith. 4 For just as in one body we have many members, and not all the members serve the same function, 5 so we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another. 6 And we have different gifts according to the grace given to us. If the gift is prophecy, that individual must use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is service, he must serve; if it is teaching, he must teach; 8 if it is exhortation, he must exhort; if it is contributing, he must do so with sincerity; if it is leadership, he must do so with diligence; if it is showing mercy, he must do so with cheerfulness.

I can agree with that.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
The seed in the parable is not the same thing as the seed of the Father.
You're certainly welcome to disagree...until He makes this suggestion to you. This is what I've been taught, and scripture confirms it throughout. Please don't accede, unless you see it too. I've been shown that everything comes to us in the form of a seed...and grows until we are filled with all the fullness of it.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Just tossing some ideas around here...as they come to me reading your post.
Correct. Sealed = Indwelt
16 I pray that according to the wealth of his glory he will grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, 17 that Christ will dwell in your hearts through faith, so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love
OK...Again, the term "sealed" is not used here, and I can accept the interpretation you're making as not at all unreasonable. This is certainly a prayer that I pray for both of us, on a regular basis, thanking God for Paul each time.

Rather I was trying to make a distinction.

The apostles were breathed on by Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, would you agree at that time, they were sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit
Um...No...In fact, I agree they were breathed on and received His Holy Breath...as the actual Greek says. Since I do not understand why John relates this episode, but for its poetic beauty, in my understanding, it prefigures Pentecost, and is prophetic in nature. Since this is not when they were baptized with His Spirit, what happened on the day of Pentecost is the actual seal of the covenant. I'm not willing to argue this point, because interpretation that is this nuanced has little value.

If you do, it follows that after this event they remained afraid and were uncertain what to do. They decided to take action and started casting lots to choose a new Apostle. They were afraid, but stayed in Jerusalem as instructed.
Yes...that fear happened until the Spirit came into the Temple, on the day of Pentecost...and the fire down came and the priests all stood and began to minister. Up until that day, you do not read of so many thousands being saved at one sermon.
Then on Pentecost, the Spirit fell upon them, and again after they were beaten by the Jewish leadership, they went back, and the Spirit fell on them again.
Yes...and I still distinguish Pentecost...as first fruit...from the rest. I think there is reason to do so. I cannot say from experience that I know when He who is resident then fills me. I've yet to see thousands saved at my word...or my shadow heal.

So I am trying to make a distinction between already being saved, and then subsequently having the Spirit of God fall on you.
I'm even worse off. I'm not a "Once saved always saved" kind of guy. I'm more of a, "If you're saved, you always have been..." kind of guy, which would place your salvation before the dawn of time. I serve a God who knew the end from the beginning, and called for a "man after His own heart..." ten years before he was even born. That same guy wrote a psalm about how well God knew him before even a day had been written of him.

This is biblical correct?
It's defensible. I wouldn't argue...It's not at all damaging!

So we have to look at two instances with Philip

He did not lay hands on the Samarians, and therefore it stands to reason that he did not lay hands on the Eunuch.
I'd argue that he recognized his mistake in Samaria, and never made that mistake again. But I cannot prove it. I can prove that he went on, moved to Caesarea, and had several daughters who prophesied.
So what we gather from this, is that as Peter and John laid hands on the Samarians (Who were already saved/infilled by God through the word and baptism Philip brought)
You're using that term again...but it's interpretive only. There were already saved. You see, I agree...but "infilled" is not the same word as "sealed", and they were not yet Baptized. The seed had been planted. I guess it boils down to when the field becomes the orchard. If I've bought and sown the field, is it an orchard, though the seedlings have not yet sprouted?
The falling of the Spirit on them happened when Peter and John laid hands on them.
That is when the baptism of Jesus happens, and rivers flowed from their innermost being. You've pointed out that the apostles experience more than one "falling of the Spirit," but only one Pentecost.

From this we can deduce some things
1. Laying on of hands is not required for salvation
2. Laying on of hands, by a person in authority leads to the Spirit falling.
3. The Spirit can fall as the gospel is preached:
Therefore laying on of hands is not required for the baptism of the Holy Spirit...

And I'm cautious by the call to "authority." Ananias laid hands on Paul, and was never heard from again. Can we not suppose that that authority is upon all who believe?

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all those who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, 46 for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “No one can withhold the water for these people to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 So he gave orders to have them baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for several days.

12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.

Point made above, but we can move on from this. (Simon) Would you say those Samarians were saved, and sealed with the Holy Spirit and indwelt by the Holy Spirit prior to the laying on of hands?
If you understood my comments above, that point is moot. Salvation began when Light was pronounced over tohu wa bohu, at creation. The Holy Spirit is not confined to a chronology of requisite events it would seem.

Ok, but prior to him being told the full gospel, was he (Apollos) saved (Sealed with/indwelt by) the Holy Spirit. What is your take on it?
Apollos is my hero in any discussion like this...Apollos was clearly called. He was Alexandrian, which, if you understand what that means, he was tantamount to "Harvard/Oxford" educated. A certain pride when into an Alexandrian's credentials. And He had followed the "red thread" throughout the scriptures, making connections no one else had made...but he had missed Pentecost altogether. Hence, Priscilla and Aquila, who could even have been still working in Rome on Pentecost, had had more experiential Christianity with Paul in Corinth than Apollos could have possibly had. Yet, for boldness without the Holy Spirit, no one can argue that Apollos was wonderfully equipped, and in the process of time, he downloaded the necessary upgrade. But it's fascinating that, following that upgrade with Priscilla and Aquilla, he is sent off to Achaia...presumably to Corinth, to draw from a Charismatic well...and yet water where Paul had planted. It's a fascinating story. I don't think you need to know the "sealed and indwelt" part. I'm satisfied with a Calvinistic "predestined" here...and bound to continue to grow in strength and the knowledge of God. Was I too cryptic and verbose? Or does this make sense?
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
The apostles were breathed on by Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.
So, would you agree at that time, they were sealed/indwelt by the Holy Spirit

If you do, it follows that after this event they remained afraid and were uncertain what to do. They decided to take action and started casting lots to choose a new Apostle. They were afraid, but stayed in Jerusalem as instructed.
Then on Pentecost, the Spirit fell upon them, and again after they were beaten by the Jewish leadership, they went back, and the Spirit fell on them again.

So I am trying to make a distinction between already being saved, and then subsequently having the Spirit of God fall on you.

This is biblical correct?
Very astute of you. Yes, there are two for those in ministry, which at the very beginning of the church was all believers to spread the Church. The eleven apostles received the first by Jesus after the resurrection and before His ascension in John 20 when Jesus breathed on them. But they still were afraid because the second filling is for POWER which they received on the Day of Pentecost while the other 120 receive their first filling, and the 120 received their second in Acts 4:29-31:

29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

Mark 16:16-18; First filling gifts for individual use.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11; Second filling power gifts for ministry and boldness for the profit of all in the congregational setting.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
You're certainly welcome to disagree...until He makes this suggestion to you. This is what I've been taught, and scripture confirms it throughout. Please don't accede, unless you see it too. I've been shown that everything comes to us in the form of a seed...and grows until we are filled with all the fullness of it.
It could be a good analogy, but the reason I can't see the seed as the Spirit here is because of the hard ground portion. That land has not been broken up by repentance to receive the seed in the first place; the number one prerequisite for Jesus to give you His Spirit. Acts 2:38 The seed there is His Word. We still can read His Word, yet not really understand it until we receive the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14. But reading His word is a good plow to break up the hardness of heart. The Word brings us to Jesus to repent.


Jeremiah 4:3
For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

Hosea 10:12
Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the Lord, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.
 
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CharismaticLady

Well-known member
So you are basically saying it depends on the amount of faith you are allocated...

I believe everyone is given a measure of faith, and then it is up to us what we do with it. If nothing, we have only ourselves to blame. We cannot say God withheld the chance of salvation from me. It is all His fault.

After repentance which is the pathway to Jesus, and why John the Baptist came first to make the pathway straight, Jesus gives us His Spirit - the whole person full of power. And it is up to that person how much of that power He releases. As our faith grows through the Word of God, the release of power to understand the Word and to receive higher gifts and maybe even an office is given.

Good parents help nourish that faith, but bad parents can destroy it. I happen to live close to Nashville, TN and north Nashville is now being called "the killing fields" of young people. Gang members breeding new gang members being raised in single parent homes without the support of the male who fathers up to 20 kids with different mothers. Despair breeds despair, and they are not schooled high enough to break the pattern. Two parent homes make a world of difference, and are more likely to attend church where their kids have a chance to grow in faith.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 1:13 And when you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) – when you believed in Christ – you were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit,
2Co 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him.
2Ti 1:14 Protect that good thing entrusted to you, through the Holy Spirit who lives within us.
This is great. Thank you. I haven't examined Ephesians 1 this closely before, which establishes well your point.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I personally don't think this is possible, since (being holy) the Holy Spirit would overwhelm our senses when He enters us.
When we read Matt 3:16 we see where God came to Jesus and spend up who He is in that man and He does the same in us all who will receive Him and you can't help but know if He is in you and you are in Him as one John 17, and you know very well if you are like Him or not and walk as He walks in His same light, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

It is unmistakable. Jesus was clear the kingdom of God doesn't come with observation it is within you. Luke 17:20-21.
 
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