Can a person have the Holy Spirit and not know it?

tbeachhead

Well-known member
Read the written word of God. The answer is obvious. after the resurrection what did Jesus do and say with the apostles regarding the reception of the Holy Spirit? And what happened on Pentecost that was distinctively different?
Thanks for your response. Nice to meet you.

Just an observation: This is kind of specious, don't you think? But, fine. I don't know you. I'll play along: I asked, "What proof do you accept that this (the baptism of the Holy Spirit) has happened? Is it a matter of mere claim? Or is there power involved in some way?" To which you say, "The answer is obvious."

I don't know if you've noticed, but the concept of Pentecost does not have singularity of interpretation. The Word of God depicts tongues of fire and supernatural tongues spoken as Jesus promised, where they were universally understood by all listeners present, each hearing what was spoken in their own language. Is that what you're talking about?

Or...a single speaker speaks, and leads three thousand to conversion and acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord? Is that the evidence you see when someone claims to be filled?

Moving on to Samaria, where Philip preached with great success and multiple baptisms, but no outpouring of the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came from Jerusalem. Then, when they brought Jesus' baptism, such power was displayed that a magician offered money to Peter and John to buy the trick. Is that what you saw? Or experienced personally? Moving on to the next time, in Cornelius' the Centurion's house, the Holy Spirit came on every member of the household so that they all spoke in tongues that no one could have understood (or they would not have been recognized by Peter as the same gift he received at Pentecost.) Is a display of foreign language that no one understands the sign you accept?

That would be OK...and sustainable if you go with Paul to Ephesus, where he finds a crowd of "disciples" who clearly found conversion through Apollos' teaching, but since he knew nothing of the baptism of the Spirit, none of his disciples knew of the Holy Spirit until Paul brought Him to them...and they all spoke in languages no one around could understand.

But that is naive to believe that everyone filled with the Spirit and baptized by Jesus speaks in tongues, and I don't even go that route.

But tell me. You think you have the fullness of the Spirit. Do you have a testimony of deeds and power as Paul describes it, so that faith is placed in the Power of God, and not the wisdom of men...which is the method in Corinth that Paul found so much more effective than his strategy in Athens?

So...is it a matter of mere claim? Or do you have the miracles of power that the Word of God contends accompany the baptism of the Spirit?
 

organgrinder

Super Member
Thanks for your response. Nice to meet you.

Just an observation: This is kind of specious, don't you think? But, fine. I don't know you. I'll play along: I asked, "What proof do you accept that this (the baptism of the Holy Spirit) has happened? Is it a matter of mere claim? Or is there power involved in some way?" To which you say, "The answer is obvious."

I don't know if you've noticed, but the concept of Pentecost does not have singularity of interpretation. The Word of God depicts tongues of fire and supernatural tongues spoken as Jesus promised, where they were universally understood by all listeners present, each hearing what was spoken in their own language. Is that what you're talking about?

Or...a single speaker speaks, and leads three thousand to conversion and acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord? Is that the evidence you see when someone claims to be filled?

Moving on to Samaria, where Philip preached with great success and multiple baptisms, but no outpouring of the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came from Jerusalem. Then, when they brought Jesus' baptism, such power was displayed that a magician offered money to Peter and John to buy the trick. Is that what you saw? Or experienced personally? Moving on to the next time, in Cornelius' the Centurion's house, the Holy Spirit came on every member of the household so that they all spoke in tongues that no one could have understood (or they would not have been recognized by Peter as the same gift he received at Pentecost.) Is a display of foreign language that no one understands the sign you accept?

That would be OK...and sustainable if you go with Paul to Ephesus, where he finds a crowd of "disciples" who clearly found conversion through Apollos' teaching, but since he knew nothing of the baptism of the Spirit, none of his disciples knew of the Holy Spirit until Paul brought Him to them...and they all spoke in languages no one around could understand.

But that is naive to believe that everyone filled with the Spirit and baptized by Jesus speaks in tongues, and I don't even go that route.

But tell me. You think you have the fullness of the Spirit. Do you have a testimony of deeds and power as Paul describes it, so that faith is placed in the Power of God, and not the wisdom of men...which is the method in Corinth that Paul found so much more effective than his strategy in Athens?

So...is it a matter of mere claim? Or do you have the miracles of power that the Word of God contends accompany the baptism of the Spirit?
My response initially was that wea are talking about two different things. Reception of the Spirit when one believes. Power of the Spirit manifested in varying supernatural gifts is an outpouring. One is a Christian when one believes in Jesus by repenting and making Him savior and Lord. The apostles did that prior to Pentecost. At Pentecost there was an outpouring of the Spirit as spoken of by the prophet Joel. That has continued for we are still in the last days. Do not conflate the two.

To answer you last question-- yes. God has moved through me and exhibited miraculous healings in several individuals. It as God moves and not in a "name it and claim it" WOF understanding. I have also seen that reality in others.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
My response initially was that wea are talking about two different things. Reception of the Spirit when one believes. Power of the Spirit manifested in varying supernatural gifts is an outpouring.
Yeah, but the testimony of scripture doesn't really back the claim, does it? Look at what Paul encountered in Acts 19 with the disciples brought to faith by Apollos in Ephesus. Remember, Apollos knew everything about Christ, and taught of the Lord correctly, but he only knew the baptism of John...all of that is in chapter 18. Priscilla and Aquilla, who worked with Paul for three years in Corinth, knew everything about a truly charismatic church, and filled in the instruction that Apollos was missing, and sent him off to Corinth to experience the Charismatic church there. That's when Paul came and found twelve believers who only knew what Apollos taught before he got corrected. Look:
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interiora and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” (Notice? Paul asked if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed? And look. They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit.)

“No,” they answered, “we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked.

“The baptism of John,” they replied.

4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

John the Baptizer is the one who differentiated between his baptism and the Baptism of Jesus, Who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. The sign that they received Him here is prophecy and tongues. At that point, they knew and there was proof that Paul could corroborate, that something supernatural had occurred.
One is a Christian when one believes in Jesus by repenting and making Him savior and Lord. The apostles did that prior to Pentecost. At Pentecost there was an outpouring of the Spirit as spoken of by the prophet Joel. That has continued for we are still in the last days. Do not conflate the two.
They were first called "Christian" in Antioch, because of their behavior, not because they had ascribed to a foreign belief system...It's far more biblical to expect supernatural evidence of the Spirit than it is to sit once a week in a pew to get spoken to for forty-five minutes by a single voice.

I'm not conflating anything. I'm reading scripture...it looks like your idea is a very good one. There has been a lot of invention over the last two thousand years that have kind of polluted the gospel Paul preached, don't you think?
To answer you last question-- yes. God has moved through me and exhibited miraculous healings in several individuals. It as God moves and not in a "name it and claim it" WOF understanding. I have also seen that reality in others.
I really wasn't asking for a testimony or a brag...you don't need to justify your call or your anointing with anyone but the Lord...least of all with a retired French teacher from the East Coast.

You could have said..."When it happened, everything changed." Simple. That's my testimony...to where I walked into school that day, and kids asked me what had happened. They could see I was different.
 

organgrinder

Super Member
Yeah, but the testimony of scripture doesn't really back the claim, does it? Look at what Paul encountered in Acts 19 with the disciples brought to faith by Apollos in Ephesus. Remember, Apollos knew everything about Christ, and taught of the Lord correctly, but he only knew the baptism of John...all of that is in chapter 18. Priscilla and Aquilla, who worked with Paul for three years in Corinth, knew everything about a truly charismatic church, and filled in the instruction that Apollos was missing, and sent him off to Corinth to experience the Charismatic church there. That's when Paul came and found twelve believers who only knew what Apollos taught before he got corrected. Look:
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the interiora and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?” (Notice? Paul asked if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed? And look. They didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit.)

“No,” they answered, “we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked.

“The baptism of John,” they replied.

4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

John the Baptizer is the one who differentiated between his baptism and the Baptism of Jesus, Who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. The sign that they received Him here is prophecy and tongues. At that point, they knew and there was proof that Paul could corroborate, that something supernatural had occurred.
They were first called "Christian" in Antioch, because of their behavior, not because they had ascribed to a foreign belief system...It's far more biblical to expect supernatural evidence of the Spirit than it is to sit once a week in a pew to get spoken to for forty-five minutes by a single voice.

I'm not conflating anything. I'm reading scripture...it looks like your idea is a very good one. There has been a lot of invention over the last two thousand years that have kind of polluted the gospel Paul preached, don't you think?
I really wasn't asking for a testimony or a brag...you don't need to justify your call or your anointing with anyone but the Lord...least of all with a retired French teacher from the East Coast.

You could have said..."When it happened, everything changed." Simple. That's my testimony...to where I walked into school that day, and kids asked me what had happened. They could see I was different.
You asked a specific question... I responded. Simple as that.
 

tbeachhead

Well-known member
I read it morning and evening... every day.
Great start. If you re-read what I took the time to write because I thought you were serious and not self-satisfied, you might see that I've read it as well...and asked what I asked for a reason, because in the fifty plus years I've been traveling with the Bible I've met those who claim to have read it who have no clue what it says.
 
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