Can anyone explain this?

[dberrie2020]

BJ Bear said:
That was previously addressed and identified as an out of context misuse of Scripture.

All Biblical scriptures which defy faith alone theology is usually considered "out of context" by the faith alone adherents.

BJ Bear said:
“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast, but not with God.” (Rom 4:2, LITV) Paul, like James, is saying that it is possible for a man to be justified by works but not before or with God. That is why I keep posting that the reader should follow the pronouns in James 2.

Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the traditional Jews--and they rejected in lieu of the umbrella of the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he was not overlooking the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--could you explain for us--if indeed--Paul was referring to a disconnect between deeds done in the body--and eternal life--why, just two chapters earlier:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

 

[G. Duval]

God's interest in human is good consciousness.

 

[Caroljeen]

Hebrew 11:7-12
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

James 2:20-26
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith is evidenced by works. If you believe God, your works with show your faith.

 

[Caroljeen]

All Biblical scriptures which defy faith alone theology is usually considered "out of context" by the faith alone adherents.


Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the traditional Jews--and they rejected in lieu of the umbrella of the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he was not overlooking the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--could you explain for us--if indeed--Paul was referring to a disconnect between deeds done in the body--and eternal life--why, just two chapters earlier:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

This is the piece you are missing if I'm understanding correctly what you are asking.

Hebrew 11:7-12
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

James 2:20-26
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Faith is evidenced by works. If you believe God, your works with show your faith.

 

[Caroljeen]

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

Here is another scripture that sheds a little more light on faith and works:

Titus1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

I think these verses show that just as faith is evidenced by works, in like manner, unbelief is evidenced by works. There are people who claim to know God but in truth they don't have faith (they do not believe) and by their works they deny him (they don't know God). Their corrupt actions prove that they do not have faith because if they had faith and truly believed and knew God they would resist doing evil.

 

[docphin5]

Here is another scripture that sheds a little more light on faith and works:

Titus1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

I think these verses show that just as faith is evidenced by works, in like manner, unbelief is evidenced by works. There are people who claim to know God but in truth they don't have faith (they do not believe) and by their works they deny him (they don't know God). Their corrupt actions prove that they do not have faith because if they had faith and truly believed and knew God they would resist doing evil.

The problem with James, which put him into conflict with Paul, was that James wanted to define what those “works” were.


Yes, James made an effective case that a soul surrendered to the Spirit of God will manifest outwardly what is going on inwardly, but the devil in the details, which Paul opposed, is that James considered circumcision one of those works. James also considered ritual purity efficacious for salvation, whereas, Paul did not.

Both Paul and James agree that works should follow faith. Even Paul talks about the Law of Christ, despite also talking about the freedom in Christ. But the difference between Paul and James is what those works should be, fruits of the spirit (virtuous living) or ritual purity (circumcision, temple rituals, adherence to feast days, etc.), respectively.

As long as the Temple stood James’ works of ritual purity appealed to Jews in Jerusalem, who thought Paul was a heretic. And freedom from ritual purity (Paul’s message) appealed to Greek converts outside Palestine.

But after the Temple was destroyed, ritual purity became less practical, especially after Rome banned Jews from Jerusalem. Consequently, Paul’s freedom from “works of the Law” won the argument between James and Paul. Even today rabbinical Jews have found a way to be “pure” without a Temple. Too bad they didn’t try to understand Paul when he was alive.

@dberrie2020

To turn this back to the author of the OP who I take is a member of LDS and advocating (LDS) Temple rituals, that is, “works”, for obtaining the Melchizedek priesthood and god like status. —Why would you think Paul supports your rituals efficacious for salvation when he wouldn’t even support the ones he grew up with, i.e., “the works of the [Mosaic] Law”?!

 

[CrowCross]

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

Tell me, just how much good works must someone do to get saved?

How many of the commandments do I need to keep to get saved?

Why is it I need to be baptized by a recognized mormon prist to be saved?

 

[Gary Mac]

Here is another scripture that sheds a little more light on faith and works:

Titus1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

I think these verses show that just as faith is evidenced by works, in like manner, unbelief is evidenced by works. There are people who claim to know God but in truth they don't have faith (they do not believe) and by their works they deny him (they don't know God). Their corrupt actions prove that they do not have faith because if they had faith and truly believed and knew God they would resist doing evil.

Anyone who is of God is exactly like Him if one is not like Him they have never met Him.

 

[Gary Mac]

Tell me, just how much good works must someone do to get saved?

You do t get it. Good works is the results of salvation not the cause for salvation.

How many of the commandments do I need to keep to get saveed?

Salvation is these commandments are fulfilled in you where it no longer becomes a matter of trying to keep them but a matter of being like them. The become who we are not what we try and be.

Why is it I need to be baptized by a recognized mormon prist to be saved?

Lol a priest can’t save you at all not even Jesus can do that. All Jesus can do is tell you what salvation entails and how to. That decision is your own to work out with God. He didn’t come to save you he came that he might be saved.

what is Gods salvation? It is to be like Him and walk as He walks in His same light as Jesus and others did.

 

[Ladodgers6]

All Biblical scriptures which defy faith alone theology is usually considered "out of context" by the faith alone adherents.


Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the traditional Jews--and they rejected in lieu of the umbrella of the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he was not overlooking the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--could you explain for us--if indeed--Paul was referring to a disconnect between deeds done in the body--and eternal life--why, just two chapters earlier:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

The Covenant of Works (Mosaic Covenant/10 Commandments) which is God's Holy Will; is that no flesh will be justified through the Law! Why, because we are condemned Law-breakers in the first Adam (Rom. 5). The Law exposes and brings knowledge of sin; which brings death & condemnation. But the Law also drives sinners to a Savior; namely Jesus Christ, the only place for sinners to find Grace & Mercy.

In Romans 4, Paul is speaking of how sinners are saved through Faith Alone apart from any works or merits of their own. That's why Paul makes that contrast between Grace vs Works in Romans 4. James is speaking to believers, in performing good works, but not in meriting Redemption, but because they are the effects of it. Our works as believers, is the fruit of our Justification through Faith Alone in Christ Alone. Our works (Sanctification) flow from our Justification. If you confuse these two, then our works become the basis or cause of our Salvation, which then becomes something earned or owed as a debt, as Paul describes in Romans 4.

4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

 

[SteveB]

All Biblical scriptures which defy faith alone theology is usually considered "out of context" by the faith alone adherents.


Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the traditional Jews--and they rejected in lieu of the umbrella of the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he was not overlooking the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--could you explain for us--if indeed--Paul was referring to a disconnect between deeds done in the body--and eternal life--why, just two chapters earlier:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

How about Romans 8:4-8

Rom 8:4-8 WEB 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be. 8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.

Paul describes that the only way to satisfy the righteous ordinances of the law is by focusing on thinking on spiritual things.

By the looks of it, there's no other way to fulfill the law.

Going back to Romans 7:12, we read that the law is spiritual and we are carnal, sold under sin.

I.e, our sin has killed the part of us that interacts with God, and no matter how hard we try, we simply cannot satisfy the law.

God however resolves this, and makes us spiritually alive through trusting Jesus.

As we read in Romans 8:9, if we have the Spirit of Christ, we have the power of God to think on spiritual things.

We further read in Philippians 4:6-9 that by praying, thanksgiving, and focusing our thoughts on good, lovely, praiseworthy, true, just, etc... things, God himself will be with us.

Paul then states in Romans 13:8-10 that Love is the fulfillment of the Law.
Which is a reiteration of the statement made by Jesus in Matthew 22:35-40.

Love God with a whole heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.... upon these hang ALL the law and prophets.

Jesus told us to keep his teachings and he and the Father will make their home with us. John 14:23.

By living a life of Love, by choosing to focus our thoughts on spiritual things, we will live out a life of godliness, and satisfy the righteousness of God through trusting Jesus.

Does this answer the question?

 

[jamesh]

All Biblical scriptures which defy faith alone theology is usually considered "out of context" by the faith alone adherents.


Paul's point is Abraham didn't live under the law of works(Mosaic Law)--but under the gospel of Jesus Christ--the very gospel Paul was attempting to bring to the traditional Jews--and they rejected in lieu of the umbrella of the Mosaic Law.

Galatians 3:8---King James Version
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Paul was a master of the scriptures--he was not overlooking the testimony of God:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So--could you explain for us--if indeed--Paul was referring to a disconnect between deeds done in the body--and eternal life--why, just two chapters earlier:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

Wow, what an astounding find? All us "out of context" faith alone adherents have been wrong all this time until Smith and deberrie showed up to set us straight.

Let me ask you this question taken from 2 Nephi 25:23, "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; FOR WE KNOW THAT IT IS BY GRACE THAT WE ARE SAVED, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO."

So what are these works and how long do we have to work these works we have to do in order for someone to be saved by grace? Give me some examples of what we have to do to get this grace to be saved? Afterall, the BoM clearly states at 2 Nephi, "FOR WE KNOW IT IS BY GRACE. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE DOEN ENOUGH deberrie?

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[Arch Stanton]

Wow, what an astounding find? All us "out of context" faith alone adherents have been wrong all this time until Smith and deberrie showed up to set us straight.

and yet 'all us' are only about 500 years ago

 

[Bonnie]

and yet 'all us' are only about 500 years ago

Baloney from the Catholic deli! the NT is rife with "grace/faith" passages that proclaim we are saved by grace through faith and NOT BY WORKS. So, if we are saved by grave through faith and not by works...what is there left to be saved by?

Luther didn't invent a new gospel--he rediscovered the original gospel, in the pages of the great epistle of Paul to the Romans....the true Gospel which Rome had buried under a ton of man-made rules and teachings.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Baloney from the Catholic deli! the NT is rife with "grace/faith" passages that proclaim we are saved by grace through faith and NOT BY WORKS. So, if we are saved by grave through faith and not by works...what is there left to be saved by?

Luther didn't invent a new gospel--he rediscovered the original gospel, in the pages of the great epistle of Paul to the Romans....the true Gospel which Rome had buried under a ton of man-made rules and teachings.

He was a heretic

 

[Tertiumquid]

Can anyone expound on--or explain-- this point?

No one can explain it... so.... How do I sign up to be a Mormon??? I think I have to feel something physically that Mormonism is true, some sort of burning sensation... so I just put my hand over the pilot flame of my stove top, hoping to get the feeling, but so far, I'm just in a lot of pain. I'm going to try sticking my left foot in the fireplace later, I'm hoping that produces the internal sensation that Mormonism is true.

Any insights to how I can get that special feeling now that I've abandoned "faith alone"... I can't wait to start doing Mormon works! What's the first Mormon work I should do?

 

[Tertiumquid]

He was a heretic

If you're a Roman Catholic, it's your private judgment that's deciding Luther was a "heretic."

If I recall correctly, there are no dogmatic pronouncements from Rome that officially and specifically refer to "Luther" as a heretic. That means: Rome's defenders are not bound to one specific view of Luther.

 

[Arch Stanton]

If you're a Roman Catholic, it's your private judgment that's deciding Luther was a "heretic."

Yes to Catholic, nope, I just put my foot in the flame of my fireplace and knew the answer.

 

[Gary Mac]

Does it really matter what Catholics think, or Mormons, or Baptists, or AOGs, or any other religious organization?

The only thing that matters to me is if I be in the Father and He be in me as one that I may walk as He walks in His same light, not what a Catholic, or Mormon or Paul or any other religious enterprises thinks and walks in. .

 

[dberrie2020]

No one can explain it... so.... How do I sign up to be a Mormon??? I think I have to feel something physically that Mormonism is true, some sort of burning sensation... so I just put my hand over the pilot flame of my stove top, hoping to get the feeling, but so far, I'm just in a lot of pain. I'm going to try sticking my left foot in the fireplace later, I'm hoping that produces the internal sensation that Mormonism is true.

Any insights to how I can get that special feeling now that I've abandoned "faith alone"... I can't wait to start doing Mormon works! What's the first Mormon work I should do?

Merry Christmas, Tertiumquid.