TeabagSalad
Well-known member
You really don't understand what a belief is, do you?
To give you a clue, another word for belief is opinion.
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Can atheism be known to exist in reality?
- Thread starter Tercon
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To give you a clue, another word for belief is opinion.
Tiburon
Well-known member
And yet you spout it like a mantra with no further explanation.
God is supposed to be 'Truth'. He wouldn't have to believe to make anything known to him. He would have direct awareness.
Truth is truth. If we can perceive the truth of Logic or Mathematics or Nature we can perceive the truth of God. How was Eve a prefect example.
According to the bible she new God from the very beginning. She couldn't not believe.
Without reality truth doesn't matter. Truth is that which conforms to reality. No reality, nothing to conform to.
So if we 'learn' to believe by believing then the ability to believe is not something we learn it's something we are born with. We can learn to be better at how we construct our beliefs but we don't actually learn how to believe.
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Tiburon
Well-known member
It bothers me because you just keep repeating the words with no clarification as to what they mean.
I don't know how truth and reality work for God and neither do you.
You make the mind of God out to be just a greater version of the human mind.
Human belief is when we accept a proposition as true based on our perception and former experience.
God has no need to 'believe'. He allegedly created everything so he has no need of 'believing' to know something is real and true.
He was the originator of it and therefore would have direct awareness of all of creation.
No you propagate that. The bible uses the word belief in the everyday accepted meaning of the word. You do not.
Do we have to learn how to breathe do we have to learn how to digest? No.
How can we learning how and why to believe the truth. According to you we have to believe it first, not learn to believe it.
No. Knowledge of the truth is the product of a believing mind.
God is supposed to be 'Truth'. Is God then just the product of a believing mind?
Of course you can. Belief is secondary.
But her belief was built on direct experience. How could she learn to believe before experiencing God?
Eve never disbelieved God's reality.
That belief is built from direct perception of the world around us.
You just said we 'have to learn how to believe the truth.'
Yet you also say we have to believe first.
So which is it, we learn to believe or we somehow just believe first?
And again how do we 'learn to believe'?
When a baby comes into this world how does it learn to believe?
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Tiburon
Well-known member
If I don't know the difference why would it bother me?
Another baseless claim
Another baseless claim
Not all beliefs are true.
Another baseless claim
Does it say we must believe without evidence?
No it is instinctual. It is pre-programmed.
Another nonsensical answer.
Is every belief true?
Another unfounded claim.
She listened to the serpent. The serpent wasn't the father of liars.
Of course we do. We have to have input to believe. The only input we have is via our senses.
You can also be taught. If you learn by experience. How do you know if you swim well or badly? How do you know if you skate well or badly? Some people don't learn.
Some people drowned.
How do you know if your beliefs are true or false?
The question was how. How do they learn? How do they evaluate beliefs?
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If it is ONLY beliefs that can be known to be true in reality, then a belief in reality is the only thing that is capable of making the truth known to us.
mikeT
Well-known member
It's not.
Actually it is only beliefs that can be make the truth known in reality, because unbelief is incapable of making the truth and reality knowable to anyone including you. So, you can bury your head in your unbelief (atheism) all you want, but that gets you nowhere but in a delusion of your own making.
mikeT
Well-known member
Actually brains and consciousness and perception and reasoning are all necessary to make truth and reality known to you.
So are a breathable atmosphere, a habitable environment, and nutrients fueling both respiration and reproduction. Without those things, beliefs about truth and reality cannot exist.
By itself, belief is insufficient.
Actually in reality believing implies a mind, consciousness, perception and reasoning necessary in order to know reality.
Actually knowing we need "a breathable atmosphere, a habitable environment, and nutrients fueling both respiration and reproduction" logically entails believing we need them as well.
Don't know why you can't see the logical consequences of belief and believing implied in all truth and reality, because without belief no truth and reality is knowable. Understand?
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
You can't PROVE a negative. But it's natural HUMAN NATURE to resist the concept of any "god" that we didn't design for ourselves.
Actually it is natural for fallen man to resist the truth and reality of God; in exchange for their own lack thereof.
Tiburon
Well-known member
Belief is capable of making the truth known. It isn't capable of making what is believed, true.
But if "belief is capable of making the truth known", then belief must be what makes the truth known.
But if the truth and reality isn't knowable without belief and belief is the only thing "capable of making the truth known", then you can't know anything about the truth or reality without believing it first.
Is that also true of unicorns and fairies? Or just things you in your own religion you want to justify?
Tiburon
Well-known member
As has been explained to you many times, not everything you believe, is true.
Belief makes the truth "known". Belief doesn't make the truth.
Strawman. I have never said that "unicorns and fairies" are beliefs in reality, rather it is you who thinks "false belief" are beliefs in reality.
Strawman and projection. When I say beliefs I am referring to and denoting beliefs in reality like' 'Biden is president in 2023' and not "false beliefs". So, why do you think "false beliefs" are beliefs in reality?
If "Belief makes the truth known" in reality, then in reality "Belief" must "make the truth" knowable.
So, what does "Belief doesn't make the truth" even mean, when the truth and reality isn't even knowable without belief?
Are you suggesting that the truth and reality isn't found with and inside of beliefs?
Right. It all comes down to what Tercon says "are beliefs in reality". If Tercon says the Christian God is true, then we are all supposed to think he is right, without question. It is beyond the realms of possibility that Tercon can be wrong. And if only everyone would realise that...
Back in the real world, it turns out Tercon is a fallible human, and his religious beliefs may be wrong. He just cannot acknowledge that possibility.
Strawman. No, I am not talking about belief in God, as it would be a waste of time to use such a belief because you disbelieve in God. Rather it is more productive to use something that both of us believe is a belief in reality; like we both believe 'Joe Biden is president in 2023' as a belief in reality.
So, I am saying is that if a 'belief in reality' is a belief like 'Biden is president in 2023'. And anything that isn't a belief in reality is a "false belief" and not a real belief in reality. And because "false beliefs" are not real beliefs in reality, then "false beliefs" must be just unbelief's of reality. They are not real beliefs, but it can be best described as just missing the truth and reality. Understand?
Projection, as if the truth requires a belief in reality in order to know that it occurs and experience its existence, then how could you see that something's existence or occurrence without belief and in unbelief of the truth in reality? Your position is illogical, when in reality you can't even recognize something for what it is without a belief in reality. I know what I believe is true because I believe belief is capable of making the truth known to me in reality. However, you disbelieve belief is capable of making the truth known to you in reality. I am the only one here who is doing what is necessary in order to make the truth known to me and you are not. Understand?
But you are talking about YOUR beliefs as though they are facts.
Can you tell us why Tercon's beliefs are privileged in this way?
Sure, a false belief is one Tercon disagrees with.
Strawman. No, I am talking about what we both believe are beliefs in reality; 'Biden is president in 2023' is a belief in reality. And false beliefs like 'Trump was president in 2010'; that's a false belief and has no connection to reality.
So, why do some people refer to a false belief like 'Trump was president in 2010' as a belief in reality, when it is obvious to both of us that it isn't reality; why do you do that?
Strawman. All beliefs in reality are affect in making the truth known to us, as that privilege is available to anyone believing in reality. But you seem to like to occupy your time by pretending "false beliefs" are real beliefs in reality, this is quite irrational to say the least. But I don't mind you showing others how irrational atheism is compared to reality.
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