Can God Change His Mind?

treeplanter

Active member
A certain CARM Christian, in another thread, has asserted that God will not / cannot change His mind to the benefit of His creation {us} because to do so would make Him less a god and more a man

This CARM Christian even goes so far as to claim that God will not / cannot change His mind to benefit us because to do so would make Him a liar!

I'd like to hear from some other Christians...
Is the poster in question correct?

Might God change His mind in order to benefit us
OR
will / must God refrain from doing so in order so as not to become like a lying man?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
A certain CARM Christian, in another thread, has asserted that God will not / cannot change His mind to the benefit of His creation {us} because to do so would make Him less a god and more a man

This CARM Christian even goes so far as to claim that God will not / cannot change His mind to benefit us because to do so would make Him a liar!

I'd like to hear from some other Christians...
Is the poster in question correct?

Might God change His mind in order to benefit us
OR
will / must God refrain from doing so in order so as not to become like a lying man?
It's a pity you needed to change what I actually said to fit your biases.

God changes his mind when we change ours.

He refuses to change his mind when we refuse to change ours.
 

treeplanter

Active member
It's a pity you needed to change what I actually said to fit your biases.

God changes his mind when we change ours.

He refuses to change his mind when we refuse to change ours.
Change what you said?
I did nothing of the sort!!!

I asked you:
"Why doesn't God give us that one extra second when we are standing before Him, having died, and finally knowing for absolute certain that He is, in fact, real?"

In response, you said that God will not / cannot change His mind {and extend the deadline that He has set for us of a lifetime in which to come to Him} because to do so would make Him less a god and more a man

You said that God will not / cannot change His mind {and extend the deadline that He has set for us of a lifetime in which to come to Him} because to do so would make Him a liar


According to you, God will not / cannot change His mind and give us the opportunity, in the moment immediately following our death, of changing our minds about Him because to do so would make Him less a god and more like a lying man!


Even when I presented scripture wherein God changed His mind for the benefit of us, His creation
{by extending the deadline that He had set and giving people more time in which to 'come to their senses' and choose Him}
you ignored it and continued to insist that God will not / cannot give us
{after we have died and come to know with absolute certainty that He is real}
that one extra second in which to choose Him because to do so
would make Him less a god and more a lying man


So far, Steve, not one single brother in Christ has come to your defense...
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Change what you said?
I did nothing of the sort!!!

I asked you:
"Why doesn't God give us that one extra second when we are standing before Him, having died, and finally knowing for absolute certain that He is, in fact, real?"

In response, you said that God will not / cannot change His mind {and extend the deadline that He has set for us of a lifetime in which to come to Him} because to do so would make Him less a god and more a man

You said that God will not / cannot change His mind {and extend the deadline that He has set for us of a lifetime in which to come to Him} because to do so would make Him a liar


According to you, God will not / cannot change His mind and give us the opportunity, in the moment immediately following our death, of changing our minds about Him because to do so would make Him less a god and more like a lying man!


Even when I presented scripture wherein God changed His mind for the benefit of us, His creation
{by extending the deadline that He had set and giving people more time in which to 'come to their senses' and choose Him}
you ignored it and continued to insist that God will not / cannot give us
{after we have died and come to know with absolute certainty that He is real}
that one extra second in which to choose Him because to do so
would make Him less a god and more a lying man


So far, Steve, not one single brother in Christ has come to your defense...

“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


two classic examples of where God will change his mind.


 

treeplanter

Active member
“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?


two classic examples of where God will change his mind.


Why are you giving me examples of God changing His mind?

I already know that God is capable of and HAS, on occasion, changed His mind!


In fact, I have already provided you with a perfect example of God changing His mind

According to Exodus, when Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments and saw that the people had fallen into sin {worshipping a golden calf and whatnot} - God told Moses that He was going to destroy the nation

Moses then pleaded on behalf of the people...
Exodus 32:14
"And the Lord changed His mind about the disaster that He planned to bring on His people"


Do you understand what this means, Steve?

It means that God changed His mind and extended the 'deadline' that He had previously set for these people - granting them additional and further opportunity to change their ways and come to Him


So, the question is, why doesn't God do the same for all of us when we die and grant us that one final moment, as we stand before Him, in which to turn from our ways and come to Him?

Do you understand, Steve, that this is the EXACT SAME THING?

In both instances, we are talking about people who have missed the deadline and are slated to be destroyed
{the Jews who were with Moses}
AND
{non-Christians who die and find themselves standing before God}

In the former instance, God changed His mind and granted those people an additional chance and further opportunity to change their ways and come to Him

In the latter instance, God refuses to change His mind and grant these people an additional chance and further opportunity to change their ways and come to Him

WHY?

Why doesn't God give us that one extra second when we are standing before Him, having died, and finally knowing for absolute certain that He is, in fact, real?"

He did it in the past - so why not today?
He did it for some - so why not for all?

WELL, according to you...
God will not / cannot change His mind and give us the opportunity, in the moment immediately following our death, of changing our minds about Him because to do so would make Him less a god and more like a lying man!

Are you now changing your mind, Steve?
Are you now admitting that you were wrong?
I hope so - because scripture itself testifies to you being wrong!

Assuming that you are man enough to admit when you are wrong, what now do you propose as the reason for why God doesn't give us that one extra second when we are standing before Him, having died, and finally knowing for absolute certain that He is, in fact, real?
 
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Whateverman

Well-known member
A god unable to do things Man is able to do would be a god weaker than his creation.

--

The whole thing falls apart no matter where you poke it...
 

treeplanter

Active member
A god unable to do things Man is able to do would be a god weaker than his creation.

--

The whole thing falls apart no matter where you poke it...
Paradoxically, this is, I often think, of great benefit to the Christian apologist...

There is so much that is wrong with it that one doesn't even know where to begin!
There is so much that is wrong with it that it is all too easy to find one's self bogged down in the minutiae!

That Christianity IS such an inherently weak and vulnerable proposition serves improbably to aid and abet in the apologist's favorite ploy of obfuscation
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
That Christianity IS such an inherently weak and vulnerable proposition serves improbably to aid and abet in the apologist's favorite ploy of obfuscation
Your religion relies on torture, threats, slavery and bullying.

If you want to leave a country dominated by atheism, you run into a wall.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Paradoxically, this is, I often think, of great benefit to the Christian apologist...

There is so much that is wrong with it that one doesn't even know where to begin!
There is so much that is wrong with it that it is all too easy to find one's self bogged down in the minutiae!

That Christianity IS such an inherently weak and vulnerable proposition serves improbably to aid and abet in the apologist's favorite ploy of obfuscation
This is a bit tangential to your point, but it's related too:

I've told this story before, but I once worked in a food R&D lab, next-to-which was the related consumer products R&D lab; two departments in the same contract research company. Our two labs often shared equipment and sometimes knowledge, and we were all friends. Jim managed the lab next to mine. I was a deist (having deconverted from religious theism), and Jim I discovered was a YEC.

Jim was a brilliant chemical engineer, and almost painfully-fit one of the Christian stereotypes: mild manner, soft spoken, very polite, and always somewhat cheerful. Anyhow, Jim and I would occasionally discuss religion, and he led me to a "discovery" of how some Christian minds work:

To him, he saw the conflict between how the physical world appeared to work, and the world described in scripture - as a puzzle. He felt that even though he worked with physical laws which all but proved that the planet/universe had to be older than 6000 years (give or take), there hints in scripture which would (if discovered) explain the apparent contradictions away. The appearance of a contradiction was nothing but a puzzle which actually reinforced his YEC faith.

Like the paradox you describe, the contradictions were actually useful to the believer. Jim was a better Christian than SteveB in almost every way imaginable, but both used the same disconnect - albeit in different ways - to reinforce their beliefs.
 

J regia

Well-known member
It's a pity you needed to change what I actually said to fit your biases.

God changes his mind when we change ours.

He refuses to change his mind when we refuse to change ours.
Is that why Abraham's god needed to walk down to Gomorrah to count the number of righteous children for itself after having a face to face conversation with Abraham (Gen 18)?
 

treeplanter

Active member
This is a bit tangential to your point, but it's related too:

I've told this story before, but I once worked in a food R&D lab, next-to-which was the related consumer products R&D lab; two departments in the same contract research company. Our two labs often shared equipment and sometimes knowledge, and we were all friends. Jim managed the lab next to mine. I was a deist (having deconverted from religious theism), and Jim I discovered was a YEC.

Jim was a brilliant chemical engineer, and almost painfully-fit one of the Christian stereotypes: mild manner, soft spoken, very polite, and always somewhat cheerful. Anyhow, Jim and I would occasionally discuss religion, and he led me to a "discovery" of how some Christian minds work:

To him, he saw the conflict between how the physical world appeared to work, and the world described in scripture - as a puzzle. He felt that even though he worked with physical laws which all but proved that the planet/universe had to be older than 6000 years (give or take), there hints in scripture which would (if discovered) explain the apparent contradictions away. The appearance of a contradiction was nothing but a puzzle which actually reinforced his YEC faith.

Like the paradox you describe, the contradictions were actually useful to the believer. Jim was a better Christian than SteveB in almost every way imaginable, but both used the same disconnect - albeit in different ways - to reinforce their beliefs.
Interesting...

We've all heard the old saying that
the heart wants what the heart wants,
but it seems that
the mind, too, wants what the mind wants
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Is that why Abraham's god needed to walk down to Gomorrah to count the number of righteous children for itself after having a face to face conversation with Abraham (Gen 18)?
You really should ask God.
He obviously explains it better.
 

J regia

Well-known member
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly

He hit the delete button.
Have you ever actually read that story, or do you just make up your own silly fantasies?

Either way, can you tell us why Lot sexually assaulted his daughters after he mocked his sons-in-law and tried to pimp their future wives when they wanted to know what Lot was up to with the two blokes he picked up down town (Gen 19)?
 

treeplanter

Active member
You really should ask God.
He obviously explains it better.
You, Steve, really should answer this:



Why are you giving me examples of God changing His mind?

I already know that God is capable of and HAS, on occasion, changed His mind!


In fact, I have already provided you with a perfect example of God changing His mind

According to Exodus, when Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments and saw that the people had fallen into sin {worshipping a golden calf and whatnot} - God told Moses that He was going to destroy the nation

Moses then pleaded on behalf of the people...
Exodus 32:14
"And the Lord changed His mind about the disaster that He planned to bring on His people"


Do you understand what this means, Steve?

It means that God changed His mind and extended the 'deadline' that He had previously set for these people - granting them additional and further opportunity to change their ways and come to Him


So, the question is, why doesn't God do the same for all of us when we die and grant us that one final moment, as we stand before Him, in which to turn from our ways and come to Him?

Do you understand, Steve, that this is the EXACT SAME THING?

In both instances, we are talking about people who have missed the deadline and are slated to be destroyed
{the Jews who were with Moses}
AND
{non-Christians who die and find themselves standing before God}

In the former instance, God changed His mind and granted those people an additional chance and further opportunity to change their ways and come to Him

In the latter instance, God refuses to change His mind and grant these people an additional chance and further opportunity to change their ways and come to Him

WHY?

Why doesn't God give us that one extra second when we are standing before Him, having died, and finally knowing for absolute certain that He is, in fact, real?"

He did it in the past - so why not today?
He did it for some - so why not for all?

WELL, according to you...
God will not / cannot change His mind and give us the opportunity, in the moment immediately following our death, of changing our minds about Him because to do so would make Him less a god and more like a lying man!

Are you now changing your mind, Steve?
Are you now admitting that you were wrong?
I hope so - because scripture itself testifies to you being wrong!

Assuming that you are man enough to admit when you are wrong, what now do you propose as the reason for why God doesn't give us that one extra second when we are standing before Him, having died, and finally knowing for absolute certain that He is, in fact, real?
 

docphin5

Active member
This is a bit tangential to your point, but it's related too:

I've told this story before, but I once worked in a food R&D lab, next-to-which was the related consumer products R&D lab; two departments in the same contract research company. Our two labs often shared equipment and sometimes knowledge, and we were all friends. Jim managed the lab next to mine. I was a deist (having deconverted from religious theism), and Jim I discovered was a YEC.

Jim was a brilliant chemical engineer, and almost painfully-fit one of the Christian stereotypes: mild manner, soft spoken, very polite, and always somewhat cheerful. Anyhow, Jim and I would occasionally discuss religion, and he led me to a "discovery" of how some Christian minds work:

To him, he saw the conflict between how the physical world appeared to work, and the world described in scripture - as a puzzle. He felt that even though he worked with physical laws which all but proved that the planet/universe had to be older than 6000 years (give or take), there hints in scripture which would (if discovered) explain the apparent contradictions away. The appearance of a contradiction was nothing but a puzzle which actually reinforced his YEC faith.

Like the paradox you describe, the contradictions were actually useful to the believer. Jim was a better Christian than SteveB in almost every way imaginable, but both used the same disconnect - albeit in different ways - to reinforce their beliefs.
If your friend Jim understood all the evidence for the earth being 5 billion years old but continued to believe in a 6,000 year old earth, then he was being irrational. Jim may be a nice guy but I don't think God is looking to fill heaven with people who are irrational in what they chose to believe which is why I think fundamentalists are further from God than many a-theists. A-theists in general are open to evidence or reason for God whereas fundamentalists attached themselves to myths and never went any further. Their minds are closed.
 

treeplanter

Active member
If your friend Jim understood all the evidence for the earth being 5 billion years old but continued to believe in a 6,000 year old earth, then he was being irrational. Jim may be a nice guy but I don't think God is looking to fill heaven with people who are irrational in what they chose to believe which is why I think fundamentalists are further from God than many a-theists. A-theists in general are open to evidence or reason for God whereas fundamentalists attached themselves to myths and never went any further. Their minds are closed.
Hey Doc,

Would you mind revisiting my thread titled COOLEST SQUARE EVER and addressing my last post to you?
 
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