Can God Know Future Freewill Choices?

Sketo

Well-known member
Um the bible tells us God knows all things it denies God determines all things

Of course you believe God knows all things, but by definition you claim part of Gods knowledge is not determined by God alone.

Your burden of proof.

Justify your claim please.

Calvinist Claim is that God alone determined his own knowledge… no addition required.
 
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Sketo

Well-known member
If the bible says he knows all thing we should just believe it right?

We all believe that, so no reason to assume something other than God determining is necessary for God to know “all things”.

If you are going to assume an addition to God is required for God to know “all things” then…

… the burden is on you to prove this addition is necessary for God to know “all things”.

Justify your claim or accept your additional claim is not nessary for God to know “all things”!

 

Sketo

Well-known member
Of course. That doesnt mean we can't look further o to it.

Exactly. We all believe God knows all things because he is God

So the question now is…

Is “All God knows” Determined by God alone or is part of it determined by God and the other part determined by something other than God?
 
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fltom

Well-known member
Exactly. We all believe God knows all things because he is God

Reformedguy thinks that is a copout

But I thought your position was God knows all things because he determined them

Are you affirming God can know what he did not determine?
 

fltom

Well-known member
That falls under the umbrella of "because He is God".

And I agree

but was told it was a copout when I stated that very thing
The set of events which God did not determine is ZERO, the empty set.
So your question is nonsensical.
So God determined all your sins

He tells you not to sin

He tells you he has made a way for you to avoid sin

but secretly he determined you would sin

and thus be unable to avoid sin

the very opposite of what he told you

Your theology therefore makes God disingenuous
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Reformedguy thinks that is a copout

But I thought your position was God knows all things because he determined them

That’s the point. What else was there, external to God that could have determined his knowledge before anything was created?

If nothing… then nothing but God could have determined his knowledge.

Are you affirming God can know what he did not determine?

What could determine something that God did not already know before creation?

Are you affirming something other than God determined part of Gods knowledge before creation?

 

fltom

Well-known member
That’s the point. What else was there, external to God that could have determined his knowledge before anything was created?

If nothing… then nothing but God could have determined his knowledge.



What could determine something that God did not already know before creation?

Are you affirming something other than God determined part of Gods knowledge before creation?

The question was

Are you affirming God can know what he did not determine?

There was nothing in it about determining God's knowledge
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The question was

Are you affirming God can know what he did not determine?

God determined all possibilities and God determined all actualities

This covers all things

“But Jesus looked at them and said… with God all things are possible.”” (Mat 19:26)

What’s left to be determined for God to know?
 

fltom

Well-known member
God determined all possibilities and God determined all actualities

This covers all things

“But Jesus looked at them and said… with God all things are possible.”” (Mat 19:26)

What’s left to be determined for God to know?
So you don't believe the WCF

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.

Westminster Assembly, The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (Philadelphia: William S. Young, 1851), 26–27.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
So you don't believe the WCF

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;

Are you assuming the “supposed conditions” are your unjustified 3rd party that determined Gods knowledge and man’s actions?

If not, then they are the “possibilities” determined by God… as I mentioned

This is how he knows the result… and your 3rd party determiner is denied below…

yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future…

God determined the possible circumstances… he did not “foresee” them.

The “circumstances” did not determine God nor did the results…

or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
In other words Gods decree is not determined by the circumstances or the results. “All things” starts with God, not circumstances, and not you.

Your unjustified 3rd party determiner is denied.

God determined all things including the possible circumstances and the result.

God determined all possibilities and God determined all actualities

This covers all things

“But Jesus looked at them and said… with God all things are possible.”” (Mat 19:26)

What’s left to be determined for God to know?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Are you assuming the “supposed conditions” are your unjustified 3rd party that determined Gods knowledge and man’s actions?

If not, then they are the “possibilities” determined by God… as I mentioned
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;

that reference things he did not determine

counterfactuals he had not determined
 

Sketo

Well-known member
II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;

that reference things he did not determine

counterfactuals he had not determined

It’s illogical of you to assume into that quote that those “supposed conditions” could exist apart from God.

“But Jesus looked at them and said, “… with God all things are possible.”” (Mat 19:26)

Apart from God no thing is possible.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
It’s illogical of you to assume into that quote that those “supposed conditions” could exist apart from God.

“But Jesus looked at them and said, “… with God all things are possible.”” (Mat 19:26)

Apart from God no thing is possible.

We are not part of God, neither are our libertarian free choices. God is not pantheistic. But God omnipotently created us and made libertarian free will possible for us, and He can uncreate us.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
We are not part of God, neither are our libertarian free choices. God is not pantheistic. But God omnipotently created us and made libertarian free will possible for us, and He can uncreate us.

Unjustified assumptions

Justify your assumptions please.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being



Stop adding to the “all things”!

 
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Sketo

Well-known member
It’s illogical of you to assume into that quote that those “supposed conditions” could exist apart from God.

“But Jesus looked at them and said, “… with God all things are possible.”” (Mat 19:26)

Apart from God no thing is possible.
We are not part of God, neither are our libertarian free choices. God is not pantheistic. But God omnipotently created us and made libertarian free will possible for us, and He can uncreate us.

🤔So you believe all things are possible with God… but without God… more things are possible?

And this makes sense to you?🤷🏻‍♂️

How does less God = more things?

Justify your logic please.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
🤔So you believe all things are possible with God… but without God… more things are possible?

And this makes sense to you?🤷🏻‍♂️

How does less God = more things?

Justify your logic please.

Nothing is possible without God, not us, not the idea of our libertarian free choices. I don't understand what you are asking with the more things.
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Unjustified assumptions

Justify your assumptions please.

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being


Stop adding to the “all things”!


Libertarian choice is not choosing outside of God if that's what you're saying. God foreknows all things.
 
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