Can God Know Future Freewill Choices?

David1701

Well-known member
There's nothing God can NOT know that has a truth value.

It's a nonsensical idea.
God can (and does) know everything; but, in the case of genuinely free-will choices, God could never predict what they would be, since, by definition, free-will, if such a thing existed, would have no determining factors. He could only know passively, by observing. This would mean that God would not be able to shape world history, since he could not determine what anyone would do, nor could he predict what anyone would do.

It's this kind of nonsense that leads some free-willers to dishonour God dreadfully, by teaching Open Theism.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
God can (and does) know everything; but, in the case of genuinely free-will choices, God could never predict what they would be, since, by definition, free-will, if such a thing existed, would have no determining factors.

This logic is so bizarre to me. It's bringing God down to the level of what a human can do.

He could only know passively, by observing.

No convincing argumentation, just bald assertion.

God can only know by observing?

Where is that in Scripture? Nowhere.

It's this kind of nonsense that leads some free-willers to dishonour God dreadfully, by teaching Open Theism.

The nonsense of limiting God's ability to a human level promotes both sides of the error.
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Why?

It's easy to say anything when you don't have to defend it. I'm not being Ugly, just asking why...

You explained the logic of it yourself.

Yet you can't see it.

I don't think I am going to be able to get you to understand that simple fact that is very obvious right in front of you...

"That's what the Law of the Excluded Middle means..."
 

David1701

Well-known member
This logic is so bizarre to me. It's bringing God down to the level of what a human can do.



No convincing argumentation, just bald assertion.

God can only know by observing?

Where is that in Scripture? Nowhere.



The nonsense of limiting God's ability to a human level promotes both sides of the error.
How can anyone predict what someone else will do, in a given situation? By using knowledge and understanding of the factors that determine his actions. If his will is not determined by anything outside itself, not desires, knowledge, understanding, pragmatism, philosophy, religion, emotions, proclivities, or anything else (and this is what free-willism teaches), then there is nothing to know, since its decisions necessarily contain a significant element of randomness. Randomness is impossible to predict, otherwise it would not be random.

I am not limiting God at all, since "free-will" is a logical impossibility, the will being that which attempts to bring the strongest desire into reality.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You mean some things are black and white opposites and both can't be true?
@Dizerner , this is what I said the Law of the Excluded Middle means; is this what you are saying makes Compatibalism into Cognitive Dissonance?

How? Your last Post wasn't an explanation of how; it was just a new statement. I promise I'll listen to Reason...
 
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fltom

Well-known member
How can anyone predict what someone else will do, in a given situation? By using knowledge and understanding of the factors that determine his actions. If his will is not determined by anything outside itself, not desires, knowledge, understanding, pragmatism, philosophy, religion, emotions, proclivities, or anything else (and this is what free-willism teaches), then there is nothing to know, since its decisions necessarily contain a significant element of randomness. Randomness is impossible to predict, otherwise it would not be random.

I am not limiting God at all, since "free-will" is a logical impossibility, the will being that which attempts to bring the strongest desire into reality.
Thats funny it is mentioned in KJV around 17 times

and cited by over 30 various translations

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NWT) But without your consent I do not want to do anything, so that your good act may be, not as under compulsion, but of your own free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.

SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.

(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

(EOB) 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent: your goodness should not be forced, but of free will.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Thats funny it is mentioned in KJV around 17 times

and cited by over 30 various translations

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NWT) But without your consent I do not want to do anything, so that your good act may be, not as under compulsion, but of your own free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.

SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.

(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.

(EOB) 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent: your goodness should not be forced, but of free will.

Can you justify your assumption that these examples above are referring to freedom from God?

Not a single one references God as the point of freedom.

ALL of them are referencing other created things.

See OP timestamp (00:02:26 Properly Defining Freewill)

Thread 'Can God Know Future Freewill Choices?'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/can-god-know-future-freewill-choices.9878/
 

Mysterium Fidei

Well-known member
"And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them."
 

fltom

Well-known member
Can you justify your assumption that these examples above are referring to freedom from God?

Not a single one references God as the point of freedom.

ALL of them are referencing other created things.

See OP timestamp (00:02:26 Properly Defining Freewill)

Thread 'Can God Know Future Freewill Choices?'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/can-god-know-future-freewill-choices.9878/
The issue is freewill not freedom from God

It was claimed freewill was impossible but the bible shows otherwise
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
Describe "this outside of time" idea. What do mean?

Does the past still exist to God? It's all a big movie real sort of, and he sees it all at once?

God created time and exists outside of time but He is in time as well. Because God created only the progressive present. ...

The past and future don't exist so God is not in what doesn't exist. Only the progressive present exists. The past is a memory and the future is open and unsettled. ...

But God just knows how an unsettled open future will turn out by luck ie miracle, not by logic or philosophy. God is the miraculous.

I would say God by omniscience does know all time as a movie which includes Himself as one of the characters but He is only interacting in the progressive present ie the only reality.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member

00:00:00 Intro

00:01:38 Establishing What God Can, And Can Not Logically Know
00:02:26 Properly Defining Freewill
00:04:05 Foundational Verses (Properties of God, Freedom from God, Semi-Deistic Dualism)
00:08:16 Defining Open Theism And Comparing It To General Freewill

00:12:57 Grounding Objection Explained (Logical Order)
00:15:20 Gods Foreknowledge Is Gods Perfect Knowledge Of His Own Actions
00:18:13 ⭐️The Most Ridiculous Argument From The Freewill Side = Semi-Deistic Dualism

00:20:36 Grounding Objection Applied To Calvinism (With Practical Water Bottle Example)
00:22:24 Grounding Objection Applied to Molinism (Directly Refutes “Middle Knowledge”)

00:23:35 If God Stops Exerting Power Over You… You Cease To Exist
00:27:42 Freewill Reverses The Logical Order Of God’s Omnipotence And Knowledge
00:29:19 The Foundational Verses “Brutally” Refute Open Theism
00:31:02 Difference Between Calvinism, Provisionism, And Open Theism
00:32:57 Non-Foundational Verses Can Not Prove Freewill (Freewill Challenge)

00:35:24 Refuting The Claim That Calvinism “Limits” God (Positive And Negative Limitations)
00:39:16 Examining Which System Has God “Learning” Or “Gaining” Knowledge (2 Options)
00:43:12 Psalm 139:16 Establishes God As Devine Author
00:44:50 Who Has The “Hidden” Unjustified Assumption?

00:48:07 Establishing The Omni-Attributes Of God (Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17:28, Colossians 1:17)
00:51:50 Omniscience Examined (Who/What Determined Gods Knowledge)
00:55:31 Asking “How God Knows” Is Essentially The Death Nail To Freewill
00:58:49 Omnipotence Properly Defined And Understood
01:04:26 Omnipotence Is Referring To Extent Not Degree
01:07:26 Omnipotence Rock Example
01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles
01:10:13 Properly Defining Evil/Sin

01:14:29 Examining Counterfactuals In Molinist “Middle Knowledge”
01:17:00 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known
01:19:41 Which God Is “Greater” (God That Determined Or Learned)
01:22:11 Does God “Gain” His Omniscience/Omnipotence Addressed

01:24:44 “It’s Not If God Knows It’s How God Knows” And Calvinists Justify How (See Above)
01:28:50 Key Word That Leighton Uses So He doesn’t Have To Justify His Claims
01:30:50 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known (“If God Can Know”)
01:33:54 Is Gods Knowledge “Generated/Caused/Determined” By God Or Not
01:41:32 Can God “Look Out” At, And Know About, Things He Does Not Create/Uphold/Sustain
01:43:38 The Ground Of How “Prophesying/Predict” The Future?

01:46:41 “If God Causes All Things, Why Does He Need Satan?” Answered (Means Matter)
01:49:50 Understanding “Means” Tree Example

01:51:40 (Example Pharaoh) Freewill Cornered
01:52:51 (Example Thanking God For Food, Clothes, Air, Life) Freewill Cornered

01:54:04 God Foreknowledge Of If/Then Statements Properly Understood (Counterfactuals)
01:58:23 Addressing “Responsibility” (Adam In Garden Example)
02:00:28 Addressing Fatalistic Assumptions (Do your Forum Posts Matter?)
02:02:54 Example; Do your “Forum Posts” Matter? (God Gives Means “Meaning”)

02:06:13 Addressing the phrase “There’s Nothing You Can Do” Addressed
02:07:21 Everything Has Meaning Because God Gives It Meaning Established

02:09:32 Calvinists Do Not “Limit” God (Molinism Refuted)
02:11:42 “Let’s Suppose Calvinism Is True” Ok Let’s…👈
02:12:56 “Middle Knowledge” Defined And Refuted (Logical Order Problem)
02:15:39 Hebrews 1:3 Brought In To Destroy “Middle Knowledge”
02:16:21 Counterfactuals Biblically Understood
02:17:02 “Let’s Just Suppose Freewill Is True” ZERO Justification👈 fltom
02:18:08 It’s Logically Impossible For A Calvinist To Also Be A Molinist
02:20:44 Jeremiah 19:5 Correctly Explained

02:25:13 Detailed Summary Of Episode
02:33:47 Conclusion
God now knows all future free will decisions.

The real question (mystery) to be answered is how did God initially create men and angels in the beginning without knowing how they would choose in the future. Jesus holds the key.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The issue is freewill not freedom from God

It was claimed freewill was impossible but the bible shows otherwise

God is the only reference point, for “freedom”, that matters. Is God determining what you do, yes or no?

If your answer is no, because you hold to this idea of “freewill”, then what you are putting forth is a claim that you are free from God when you make choices. He is not determining them. So freewill is freedom from God.

If you reject that definition, and say that that's somehow a misrepresentation of “free will” then you have a very watered-down version of freewill which actually is not important in the long run, because if you're going to admit that God can determine what you do then your reference point for “freedom” is not “God”… it's been moved somewhere else. Probably to just the simple fact that you're doing what you “want”… and you “doing what you want” works perfectly fine in a Calvinistic worldview as well. God is determining ALL THINGS (Eph1:11), not just what you will do, but also the fact that you “want to do them” so "doing what you want ‘freely’", in the sense of just “acting upon your desires” has nothing at all to do with the actual discussion of “free will” (freedom from God) which is what matters.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
God now knows all future free will decisions.

The real question (mystery) to be answered is how did God initially create men and angels in the beginning without knowing how they would choose in the future. Jesus holds the key.

Consider Timestamp (00:02:26 Properly Defining Freewill) of the OP video.
 

Mysterium Fidei

Well-known member
God can interiorly move the free will which He has ordained to universal good and which He maintains in existence. He alone by His unsullied contact can so move the will as to not to destroy its liberty, and reconcile His infallible motion with the free mode of our acts.
 
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