Can God Know Future Freewill Choices?

Sketo

Well-known member
God can interiorly move the free will which He has ordained to universal good and which He maintains in existence. He alone by His unsullied contact can so move the will as to not to destroy its liberty, and reconcile His infallible motion with the free mode of our acts.

I believe you are in agreement with these timestamps…

Thread 'Free Will Meticulously Examined… and Refuted!'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/free-will-meticulously-examined…-and-refuted.5746/

04:32:35 ⭐️QUESTION 11 (Can God determine that you do what you “WANT” to do, and it also be what He “WANTS” you to do?)
04:37:48 ⭐️QUESTION 11 reiterated (Can God determine that you do what He “WANTS” you to do, and it also be what you “WANT” to do?
04:40:00 ⭐️⭐️QUESTION 11 If you answer yes this is why you lose the debate.

 

Mysterium Fidei

Well-known member
Every action is caused by something existing in act, since nothing produces an action save in so far as it is in act: and every being in act is reduced to the first Act, God, as to its cause, who is Act by His essence. Therefore, God is the cause of every action, in so far as it is an action. But sin denotes a being and an action with a defect: and this defect is from a created cause, the free will, as falling away from the order of the first Agent, God. Consequently this defect is not reduced to God as its cause, but to the free will. Accordingly, God is the cause of the act of sin: and yet He is not the cause of sin, because He does not cause the act to have defect.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
God is outside of time and created all things, determinant…

Why do you assume God needs the timeline of creation, or anything in it, to know the future?

Whenever the phrase “God is outside of (something)” is used it creates an unnecessary reference point for God’s knowledge.

Is that “something” necessary for God to know?

If not let’s discuss before anything is created. When only God existed.

How does God know the future without (something) outside of himself determining it?

and indeterminate.

Unjustified assumption.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Consider Timestamp (00:02:26 Properly Defining Freewill) of the OP video.

Jesus has two natures. Fully man (Soul) and God.

When Jesus came to earth He revealed that He was able to deny Himself of His powers of Deity. It was needed to do so as to make Himself to become a man. (Philippians 2:6-8) In the volunteered state of being Jesus walked as a man who loved God. A man who was totally dependent upon God for all his needs. He refused to connect with His enabling powers of Deity.

God used that same soul of the one that made himself become Jesus to create all things.. and placed him into the same kind of state like He was as Jesus. Then through that soul He created with his soul all angels and all men. When doing so He was outside of His power of omniscience, just like Jesus was outside omniscience. And, in love was able to be free to create all of us with one desire. For all angels and men to love God. Yet, because He was outside of omniscience? Made us to be free not to love God, since no real life can exist without having one's own volition.

He created all things first for the Father.. Once the Lord God returned to His omniscience, He knew instantly that He would need to go to the Cross, But, not before He took back up His powers of being God while creating.

grace and peace...........
 
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Kampioen

Well-known member
If not let’s discuss before anything is created. When only God existed.

How does God know the future without (something) outside of himself determining it?

God knows an open unsettled future by "luck" ie a miracle. Both the future and God's "guess" are open. Neither one determines the other, like two rolled dice. Yet God will get it rignt. **God is miraculous, which is His nature**. Nothing is outside of God's control. It is not determined nor judged by philosophy or logic or something outside of God.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
God knows an open unsettled future by "luck" ie a miracle. Both the future and God's "guess" are open. Neither one determines the other, like two rolled dice. Yet God will get it rignt. **God is miraculous, which is His nature**. Nothing is outside of God's control. It is not determined nor judged by philosophy or logic or something outside of God.

This is ridiculous. You can’t justify how God knows, with scripture or logic, so you just slap “luck”, “miracle”, or “mystery” on your assumption and that magically makes it go away? What a joke.

If that’s the case why argue about anything… just make your claims and go home. It doesn’t matter anymore if it’s a logical fallacy or not just simply call it a “miracle”.

Example: What if I claimed God can create another noncreated God like himself.

How are you going to argue with this if I’m allowed to simply counter you with…

“It’s a miracle”, or “it’s a mystery”, or “Gods just lucky”?

This is nonsense!

For a proper LOGICAL understanding of miracles consider timestamp 01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles



00:18:13 ⭐️The Most Ridiculous Argument From The Freewill Side = Semi-Deistic Dualism

00:44:50 Who Has The “Hidden” Unjustified Assumption?

01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles

01:17:00 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known

 

fltom

Well-known member
God is the only reference point, for “freedom”, that matters. Is God determining what you do, yes or no?

If your answer is no, because you hold to this idea of “freewill”, then what you are putting forth is a claim that you are free from God when you make choices. He is not determining them. So freewill is freedom from God.

If you reject that definition, and say that that's somehow a misrepresentation of “free will” then you have a very watered-down version of freewill which actually is not important in the long run, because if you're going to admit that God can determine what you do then your reference point for “freedom” is not “God”… it's been moved somewhere else. Probably to just the simple fact that you're doing what you “want”… and you “doing what you want” works perfectly fine in a Calvinistic worldview as well. God is determining ALL THINGS (Eph1:11), not just what you will do, but also the fact that you “want to do them” so "doing what you want ‘freely’", in the sense of just “acting upon your desires” has nothing at all to do with the actual discussion of “free will” (freedom from God) which is what matters.
The bible speaks of freewill

So if you are a bible believers you must believe in freewill

If you do not believe the bible you can be a Calvinist and deny freewill
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
The bible speaks of freewill

So if you are a bible believers you must believe in freewill

If you do not believe the bible you can be a Calvinist and deny freewill
Most Calvinists affirm free will except the hard determinists. This has been pointed out to you as well a million times. You simply refuse to listen. Ruins the Provisionists war plan
 

Sketo

Well-known member
The issue is freewill not freedom from God

Again…

Then you have a very watered-down version of freewill which actually is not important in the long run, because if you're going to admit that God can determine what you do then your reference point for “freedom” is not “God”it's been moved somewhere else. Probably to just the simple fact that you're doing what you “want”…

…and you “doing what you want” works perfectly fine in a Calvinistic worldview as well. God is determining ALL THINGS (Eph1:11)…

…Not just what you will do, but also the fact that you “want to do them” so "doing what you want ‘freely’", in the sense of just “acting upon your desires” has nothing at all to do with the actual discussion of (freedom from God) which is what matters.

 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
The past is absolutely required for the present to exist.

Again it's just your frame of reference, as long as you insist on the frame of reference from something within the confines of time, anything outside will seem impossible to you.
Ok so the future exists in your view as well then?
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
The issue is freewill not freedom from God

It was claimed freewill was impossible but the bible shows otherwise
Come on Now.

You really don't know the context of his claim?

You have been around this debate long enough to know he was referencing your view of free will.
 

David1701

Well-known member
Every action is caused by something existing in act, since nothing produces an action save in so far as it is in act: and every being in act is reduced to the first Act, God, as to its cause, who is Act by His essence. Therefore, God is the cause of every action, in so far as it is an action. But sin denotes a being and an action with a defect: and this defect is from a created cause, the free will, as falling away from the order of the first Agent, God. Consequently this defect is not reduced to God as its cause, but to the free will. Accordingly, God is the cause of the act of sin: and yet He is not the cause of sin, because He does not cause the act to have defect.
There is a problem with this (at least one), which is that the sinful act that was the fall of man, was not merely an act with a defect; rather, the act itself was the defect. It was impossible to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, in a way that was not defective, since the act itself was forbidden.
 

David1701

Well-known member
The bible speaks of freewill

So if you are a bible believers you must believe in freewill

If you do not believe the bible you can be a Calvinist and deny freewill
For anyone reading this: the problem with the above claim, is that free-willers use the term "freewill", but they don't use it in the way the Bible uses it. When the Bible uses it, it almost always means "voluntary", which is in full agreement with what men call "Calvinism"; but, that is not what free-willers mean, when they say "free-will". They mean a will that is not determined by anything (including God) outside itself, even the person's own desires, knowledge, understanding, beliefs, etc..
 

Kampioen

Well-known member
This is ridiculous. You can’t justify how God knows, with scripture or logic, so you just slap “luck”, “miracle”, or “mystery” on your assumption and that magically makes it go away? What a joke.

If that’s the case why argue about anything… just make your claims and go home. It doesn’t matter anymore if it’s a logical fallacy or not just simply call it a “miracle”.

Example: What if I claimed God can create another noncreated God like himself.

How are you going to argue with this if I’m allowed to simply counter you with…

“It’s a miracle”, or “it’s a mystery”, or “Gods just lucky”?

This is nonsense!

For a proper LOGICAL understanding of miracles consider timestamp 01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles



God created from nothing ie exnihilo. Is that logical? No. Correct? But we say we're talking about God ie a supreme being so it's logical. Well a miracle is logical because we're talking about God, a supreme being. Thus God foreknowing an open future is a miracle but logical for God.
This is ridiculous. You can’t justify how God knows, with scripture or logic, so you just slap “luck”, “miracle”, or “mystery” on your assumption and that magically makes it go away? What a joke.

If that’s the case why argue about anything… just make your claims and go home. It doesn’t matter anymore if it’s a logical fallacy or not just simply call it a “miracle”.

Example: What if I claimed God can create another noncreated God like himself.

How are you going to argue with this if I’m allowed to simply counter you with…

“It’s a miracle”, or “it’s a mystery”, or “Gods just lucky”?

This is nonsense!

For a proper LOGICAL understanding of miracles consider timestamp 01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles



Your denial that God can do miracles is what is ridiculous. God created from nothing ie exnihilo. Is that logical? No. Correct? But we say we're talking about God ie a supreme being so it's logical. Well a miracle is logical because we're talking about God. God foreknowing an unsettled open future is a miracle but logical for God.

So why don't you justify your claim that God can't do miracles. Oh! You said it's illogical. Ok.
 

Sketo

Well-known member
God created from nothing ie exnihilo. Is that logical? No. Correct?
Incorrect!
But we say we're talking about God ie a supreme being so it's logical.
Correct!
Well a miracle is logical because we're talking about God, a supreme being.
You do not understand what a “miracle” is.

A “miracle” is not God interacting where he was not previously acting…A miracle is God acting different than he normally does.

It’s not like a “thing” called “nothing” existed separate from God then he decided to make something out of that separate “thing”.

Thus God foreknowing an open future is a miracle but logical for God.

No it’s not! This is a fabrication because you can not justify your assumption.

Something from nothing is illogical and is not a miracle.

God did not create something nothing. God is not nothing. God is something. This is why it is illogical for there to be a disconnect from God.

Evolutionist teach that the universe and everything in it came from nothing. This is illogical and foolish. This is not the Christian teaching. God is not nothing.


Hebrews 1:2-3
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


Acts 17:24-28
The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man,
for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

Something from nothing is illogical.

Something from God is logical.

Your denial that God can do miracles is what is ridiculous.

You assuming that man is a “thing”, separate from God, that some new thing can come from is no different that the illogical view of Evolution. That is what is ridiculous.

You place man in the position of God and remove God from the equation by stating man can even create a thought out of himself. This is no different than the Evolutionist argument.

Without God you cease to exist. Without God you are nothing.

You are not God creating out of yourself something that did not previously exist… but this is the illogic of the “libertarian freewill” view.

“Libertarian freewill” argumentation is no different than the evolutionists argumentation.

 

fltom

Well-known member
For anyone reading this: the problem with the above claim, is that free-willers use the term "freewill", but they don't use it in the way the Bible uses it. When the Bible uses it, it almost always means "voluntary", which is in full agreement with what men call "Calvinism"; but, that is not what free-willers mean, when they say "free-will". They mean a will that is not determined by anything (including God) outside itself, even the person's own desires, knowledge, understanding, beliefs, etc..
The issue here is whether free will is possible

It is not only possibly but reality if you believe the bible

Now if you wish to affirm the reality of free will we can address what it entails

Will you take that first step?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Come on Now.

You really don't know the context of his claim?

You have been around this debate long enough to know he was referencing your view of free will.
You come on now

Confess free will and then we can discuss what it entails

The fact is Calvinism teaches determinism of all things so all is necessary

but Freewill is contrary to necessity according to scripture
 

fltom

Well-known member
Again…

Then you have a very watered-down version of freewill which actually is not important in the long run, because if you're going to admit that God can determine what you do then your reference point for “freedom” is not “God”it's been moved somewhere else. Probably to just the simple fact that you're doing what you “want”…

…and you “doing what you want” works perfectly fine in a Calvinistic worldview as well. God is determining ALL THINGS (Eph1:11)…

…Not just what you will do, but also the fact that you “want to do them” so "doing what you want ‘freely’", in the sense of just “acting upon your desires” has nothing at all to do with the actual discussion of (freedom from God) which is what matters.

You apparently are unaware that no one holds an absolute free will

rather it is a soft free will

and it is important because Calvinism holds all things are determined and therefore necessary

but free will exists and it is contrary to necessity

So once again confirm free will and we can then discuss what that entails

according to the word of God
 

fltom

Well-known member
Most Calvinists affirm free will except the hard determinists. This has been pointed out to you as well a million times. You simply refuse to listen. Ruins the Provisionists war plan
What that fails to consider is compatibilism redefines free will so is is compatible with necessity

and that however is contrary to free will as seen in the translations of Philemon 1:14
 
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