Can God Know Future Freewill Choices?

Simpletruther

Well-known member

00:00:00 Intro

00:01:38 Establishing What God Can, And Can Not Logically Know
00:02:26 Properly Defining Freewill
00:04:05 Foundational Verses (Properties of God, Freedom from God, Semi-Deistic Dualism)
00:08:16 Defining Open Theism And Comparing It To General Freewill

00:12:57 Grounding Objection Explained (Logical Order)
00:15:20 Gods Foreknowledge Is Gods Perfect Knowledge Of His Own Actions
00:18:13 ⭐️The Most Ridiculous Argument From The Freewill Side = Semi-Deistic Dualism

00:20:36 Grounding Objection Applied To Calvinism (With Practical Water Bottle Example)
00:22:24 Grounding Objection Applied to Molinism (Directly Refutes “Middle Knowledge”)

00:23:35 If God Stops Exerting Power Over You… You Cease To Exist
00:27:42 Freewill Reverses The Logical Order Of God’s Omnipotence And Knowledge
00:29:19 The Foundational Verses “Brutally” Refute Open Theism
00:31:02 Difference Between Calvinism, Provisionism, And Open Theism
00:32:57 Non-Foundational Verses Can Not Prove Freewill (Freewill Challenge)

00:35:24 Refuting The Claim That Calvinism “Limits” God (Positive And Negative Limitations)
00:39:16 Examining Which System Has God “Learning” Or “Gaining” Knowledge (2 Options)
00:43:12 Psalm 139:16 Establishes God As Devine Author
00:44:50 Who Has The “Hidden” Unjustified Assumption?

00:48:07 Establishing The Omni-Attributes Of God (Hebrews 1:3, Acts 17:28, Colossians 1:17)
00:51:50 Omniscience Examined (Who/What Determined Gods Knowledge)
00:55:31 Asking “How God Knows” Is Essentially The Death Nail To Freewill
00:58:49 Omnipotence Properly Defined And Understood
01:04:26 Omnipotence Is Referring To Extent Not Degree
01:07:26 Omnipotence Rock Example
01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles
01:10:13 Properly Defining Evil/Sin

01:14:29 Examining Counterfactuals In Molinist “Middle Knowledge”
01:17:00 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known
01:19:41 Which God Is “Greater” (God That Determined Or Learned)
01:22:11 Does God “Gain” His Omniscience/Omnipotence Addressed

01:24:44 “It’s Not If God Knows It’s How God Knows” And Calvinists Justify How (See Above)
01:28:50 Key Word That Leighton Uses So He doesn’t Have To Justify His Claims
01:30:50 God Can Only Know What Can Logically Be Known (“If God Can Know”)
01:33:54 Is Gods Knowledge “Generated/Caused/Determined” By God Or Not
01:41:32 Can God “Look Out” At, And Know About, Things He Does Not Create/Uphold/Sustain
01:43:38 The Ground Of How “Prophesying/Predict” The Future?

01:46:41 “If God Causes All Things, Why Does He Need Satan?” Answered (Means Matter)
01:49:50 Understanding “Means” Tree Example

01:51:40 (Example Pharaoh) Freewill Cornered
01:52:51 (Example Thanking God For Food, Clothes, Air, Life) Freewill Cornered

01:54:04 God Foreknowledge Of If/Then Statements Properly Understood (Counterfactuals)
01:58:23 Addressing “Responsibility” (Adam In Garden Example)
02:00:28 Addressing Fatalistic Assumptions (Do your Forum Posts Matter?)
02:02:54 Example; Do your “Forum Posts” Matter? (God Gives Means “Meaning”)

02:06:13 Addressing the phrase “There’s Nothing You Can Do” Addressed
02:07:21 Everything Has Meaning Because God Gives It Meaning Established

02:09:32 Calvinists Do Not “Limit” God (Molinism Refuted)
02:11:42 “Let’s Suppose Calvinism Is True” Ok Let’s…👈
02:12:56 “Middle Knowledge” Defined And Refuted (Logical Order Problem)
02:15:39 Hebrews 1:3 Brought In To Destroy “Middle Knowledge”
02:16:21 Counterfactuals Biblically Understood
02:17:02 “Let’s Just Suppose Freewill Is True” ZERO Justification👈 fltom
02:18:08 It’s Logically Impossible For A Calvinist To Also Be A Molinist
02:20:44 Jeremiah 19:5 Correctly Explained

02:25:13 Detailed Summary Of Episode
02:33:47 Conclusion
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Man is in fact separate/outside from God as He created us ie we are not God.

But your view that we are not separate from God is pantheism ie we and creation and our thoughts are part of God. How do you deny this accusation?

This is a short visual explanation of my position… (not pantheism)…

 

Sketo

Well-known member
@Simpletruther

Did you get a chance to check out these time stamps…

00:58:49 Omnipotence Properly Defined And Understood
01:04:26 Omnipotence Is Referring To Extent Not Degree
01:07:26 Omnipotence Rock Example
01:08:32 Properly Explaining Miracles

???

 

fltom

Well-known member
Who’s Ultimately responsible for these sins…
not asking who’s “morally” responsible…
I’m asking who is Ultimately responsible?
What part of man was not clear

God did not committ your sin

You did

If you believe scripture God provides a way to escape sin not ac way to make it impossible to not sin



“Act 4:27-28 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”
Acts 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God knew of the Jews desire to kill Christ he there determined to use that desire and determine the crucifixion

He did not determine that desire

In any case using a single example of God using an evil act to a good end does not mean God caused all evil acts

that is a non sequitor
 

fltom

Well-known member
Lule 13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish
And do you suppose they believed Christ?
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
What part of man was not clear

God did not committ your sin

You did

If you believe scripture God provides a way to escape sin not ac way to make it impossible to not sin




Acts 2:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God knew of the Jews desire to kill Christ he there determined to use that desire and determine the crucifixion

He did not determine that desire

In any case using a single example of God using an evil act to a good end does not mean God caused all evil acts

that is a non sequitor
He does after your saved though? Remind us again why you believe in eternal security.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
I generally affirm the true believers security

but the matter is not as clear cut as some other issues
And what about after you are in heaven, can you fall away then or is your free will taken away And you become a "robot".

Those seem the only two options your side presents.
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
You have not rebutted it

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.

and more
Ok. Can we agree that PAUL is not using the word "necessity" in a determinitive way?

He is not contrasting a deterministic verses libertarian free choice?

He is not claiming he will literally determine philemons choice by pulling rank on him and demand he take the slave back?
 
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fltom

Well-known member
Ok. Can we agree that PAUL is not using the word "necessity" in a determinitive way?

He is not contrasting a deterministic verses libertarian free choice?

He is not claiming he will literally determine philemons choice by pulling rank on him and demand he take the slave back?
No we cannot

He is contrasting free will with necessity however the necessity is established

just like

free will
[ˌfrē ˈwil]

NOUN
  1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
 

fltom

Well-known member
And what about after you are in heaven, can you fall away then or is your free will taken away And you become a "robot".

Those seem the only two options your side presents.
No i do not believe you can

But that is a factor of your nature

It does not deny free will any more that the impossibility of God to lie denies he has free will
 
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