Can someone explain why?

shnarkle

Well-known member
Hi, shnarkle!
Could you please give me references to where the NIV does not "point to God as Jesus' father, but Joseph."?
Luke 2:33

“And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him,” (Luke 2:33, KJV).


“And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him,” (Luke 2:33, ESV)

And then there's this:

John 9:35:

“Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” (KJV).

“Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of Man?’” (NIV).

“Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea,” (Revelation 1:11, KJV).


“which said: ‘Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea,’” (Revelation 1:11, NIV).

“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59, KJV).

“And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59, ESV).
--Rich

BTW, I 've found a good place for inexpensive hardcopy Bibles is a used book store. Or even apps such as My Sword and myBible.
I've got an entire shelf of bibles as well as an apple box full of them. Some thrift stores will even give them away. I have only one or two duplicate translations. If I remember correctly, the Mormon and some other churches will send you one by mail for free as well.
 

RiJoRi

Well-known member
Luke 2:33

“And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him,” (Luke 2:33, KJV).


“And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him,” (Luke 2:33, ESV)

And then there's this:

John 9:35:

“Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” (KJV).

“Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of Man?’” (NIV).

“Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea,” (Revelation 1:11, KJV).


“which said: ‘Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea,’” (Revelation 1:11, NIV).

“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59, KJV).

“And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59, ESV).

I've got an entire shelf of bibles as well as an apple box full of them. Some thrift stores will even give them away. I have only one or two duplicate translations. If I remember correctly, the Mormon and some other churches will send you one by mail for free as well.
Thanks!
--Rich
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I believe you're thinking of the New American Bible. The ASV was intro'd in 1902 or so...

--Rich
Here you go Rich,

I seriously doubt that claim. I've got a John MacArthur bible that has the American Standard Version, and I know he's not a Catholic. There's no apocrypha in that translation either so why would Catholics promote it? Maybe you're thinking of the English Standard version.

I also have a John MacArthur NASB, 2020. That's New American Standard Bible. It makes a difference. The Catholics use the New American Bible


Sometimes one word means a world of difference. I also have a KJV, NKJV, ESV, CSB, NET, Geneva, and others.

Of note, I was born and raised in Long Beach, CA and I attended Pastor John's Grace Community Church. It was a glorious experience. You are right about his views of Catholics. He is not a fan.

Ultimately underpinning all of them is the ASV/RSV. These Bibles used an eclectic approach to translation and used a wide range of manuscripts, not just the TR.

God Speed ✝️
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Luke 2:33

“And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him,” (Luke 2:33, KJV).


“And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him,” (Luke 2:33, ESV)

And then there's this:

John 9:35:

“Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?” (KJV).

“Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, ‘Do you believe in the Son of Man?’” (NIV).

“Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea,” (Revelation 1:11, KJV).


“which said: ‘Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea,’” (Revelation 1:11, NIV).

“And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59, KJV).

“And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit,” (Acts 7:59, ESV).

I've got an entire shelf of bibles as well as an apple box full of them. Some thrift stores will even give them away. I have only one or two duplicate translations. If I remember correctly, the Mormon and some other churches will send you one by mail for free as well.

This is a KJVO standby. Any reading of the 2 Chapter Luke demonstrates that that the subject was Joseph as the earthly father of Jesus.

27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, that they might do concerning him after the custom of the law, 28 then he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Now lettest thou thy servant depart, Lord,
According to thy word, in peace;
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples;
32 A light for revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And his father and his mother were marvelling at the things which were spoken concerning him; 34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the falling and the rising of many in Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against; 35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity, 37 and she had been a widow even unto fourscore and four years), who departed not from the temple, worshipping with fastings and supplications night and day. 38 And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks unto God, and spake of him to all them that were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem. 39 And when they had accomplished all things that were according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

41 And his parents went every year to Jerusalem at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast; 43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not; 44 but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day’s journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance: 45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him. 46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions: 47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father’s house? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and he was subject unto them: and his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

This is much ado about nothing. It's forcing an issue, where there is no issue.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
I believe you're thinking of the New American Bible. The ASV was intro'd in 1902 or so...

--Rich

Wait... Now I'm starting to think I'm having a problem myself. LOL. I can be stubborn at times, and it never serves me well. I went back to read exactly what I said, and I did make a mistake.

Thanks for your graciousness!


I found this at an approved Catholic Bible site. Notice it doesn't say 'Standard'.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
On some level, I could go along with this, but then there's also that nagging issue of the fact that the NWT uses the same manuscripts as the NIV and the rest because those manuscripts don't point to God as Jesus' father, but Joseph. In other words, they are consistent in their view of Jesus as simply a man rather than the son of God.

I've run into quite a few people who swear that they would never use a NWT of the bible, yet when I point out that their bible uses the exact same manuscripts and translates those same passages the same as the NWT, they suddenly don't want to talk about getting a new bible. The most obvious reason being that the one they're using cost them a lot of money, and they don't want to just toss it into the trash.
For all earthly purposes Joe was Jesus' father. Under both Roman & Jewish law of the time, a man was considered the father of any child his wife had during their marriage, regardless of whom the bio father may have been. Jesus was born after Joe & Mary were married, so, on earth, he was considered to be Jesus' father. And the KJV calls them Jesus' PARENTS in Luke 2:41, & Mary calls Joseph HIS FATHER in Luke 2:48, not because she was stupid, but because she knew the law I mentioned above.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
On some level, I could go along with this, but then there's also that nagging issue of the fact that the NWT uses the same manuscripts as the NIV and the rest because those manuscripts don't point to God as Jesus' father, but Joseph. In other words, they are consistent in their view of Jesus as simply a man rather than the son of God.

I've run into quite a few people who swear that they would never use a NWT of the bible, yet when I point out that their bible uses the exact same manuscripts and translates those same passages the same as the NWT, they suddenly don't want to talk about getting a new bible. The most obvious reason being that the one they're using cost them a lot of money, and they don't want to just toss it into the trash.

How very odd. I've used the NIV several times to refute JWs. I don't know what passages you're referring to as being "the same", but I can tell you from plural personal experiences that the NIV does just fine in refuting JWs.
This is a KJVO standby. Any reading of the 2 Chapter Luke demonstrates that that the subject was Joseph as the earthly father of Jesus.

27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, that they might do concerning him after the custom of the law, 28 then he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Now lettest thou thy servant depart, Lord,
According to thy word, in peace;
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples;
32 A light for revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And his father and his mother were marvelling at the things which were spoken concerning him; 34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the falling and the rising of many in Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against; 35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity, 37 and she had been a widow even unto fourscore and four years), who departed not from the temple, worshipping with fastings and supplications night and day. 38 And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks unto God, and spake of him to all them that were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem. 39 And when they had accomplished all things that were according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

41 And his parents went every year to Jerusalem at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast; 43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not; 44 but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day’s journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance: 45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him. 46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions: 47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father’s house? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and he was subject unto them: and his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

This is much ado about nothing. It's forcing an issue, where there is no issue.

I'm sorry, gang, but I'm just not seeing what the big deal is here. Just WHAT is it here that's so awful, terrible, horrible, grab-the-heretic-and-string-him-up blasphemy or whatever??
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
This is a KJVO standby. Any reading of the 2 Chapter Luke demonstrates that that the subject was Joseph as the earthly father of Jesus.

27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, that they might do concerning him after the custom of the law, 28 then he received him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Now lettest thou thy servant depart, Lord,
According to thy word, in peace;
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples;
32 A light for revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And his father and his mother were marvelling at the things which were spoken concerning him; 34 and Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the falling and the rising of many in Israel; and for a sign which is spoken against; 35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed. 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived with a husband seven years from her virginity, 37 and she had been a widow even unto fourscore and four years), who departed not from the temple, worshipping with fastings and supplications night and day. 38 And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks unto God, and spake of him to all them that were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem. 39 And when they had accomplished all things that were according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

40 And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

41 And his parents went every year to Jerusalem at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up after the custom of the feast; 43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning, the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and his parents knew it not; 44 but supposing him to be in the company, they went a day’s journey; and they sought for him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance: 45 and when they found him not, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking for him. 46 And it came to pass, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them, and asking them questions: 47 and all that heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 And when they saw him, they were astonished; and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? knew ye not that I must be in my Father’s house? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. 51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth; and he was subject unto them: and his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

52 And Jesus advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

This is much ado about nothing. It's forcing an issue, where there is no issue.
To a certain degree I would agree, especially when we note that one doesn't have to be the biological father to be a father. My only point is in noting that there are many who swear that they would never use the NWT yet use the same manuscripts they use, and have the same translation as well.

The KJ only movement seems to be much ado about nothing, yet the NWT seems to get much more traction from those who oppose it.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
How very odd. I've used the NIV several times to refute JWs. I don't know what passages you're referring to as being "the same", but I can tell you from plural personal experiences that the NIV does just fine in refuting JWs.
Not with respect to those specific passages they cite because of the manuscripts they choose to use. There are plenty of doctrines that can be refuted using their own NWT bibles. My point is that the NIV uses the same manuscripts that the NWT uses and results, with a few exceptions; in essentially the same translations.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
For all earthly purposes Joe was Jesus' father. Under both Roman & Jewish law of the time, a man was considered the father of any child his wife had during their marriage, regardless of whom the bio father may have been. Jesus was born after Joe & Mary were married, so, on earth, he was considered to be Jesus' father. And the KJV calls them Jesus' PARENTS in Luke 2:41, & Mary calls Joseph HIS FATHER in Luke 2:48, not because she was stupid, but because she knew the law I mentioned above.
Personally, I don't have a problem with either version. I see how they both work because Jesus was a human being regardless of which manuscripts are used. The problem arises when those who view Jesus as God then conclude that Jesus created the world which clearly isn't the case as human beings are created. A human being did not create the world.

JW's understand a piece of the puzzle, but then extrapolate from that single piece a worldview that doesn't fit with reality. Likewise, those who view Jesus as God do the same thing with a completely different worldview that also doesn't fit with reality.

The former view God's word as a creation rather than what naturally emanates from God while the latter can't begin to address the fact that a human being cannot become a human being. It is the word that became flesh, therefore the word could not have been flesh prior to becoming flesh. What becomes flesh inhabits that flesh, but that flesh necessarily dies, and can never inherit the kingdom of heaven.

The flesh is not created in God's image. God's image is seen in the flesh just like water is seen within a glass.
 

imJRR

Well-known member
Personally, I don't have a problem with either version. I see how they both work because Jesus was a human being regardless of which manuscripts are used. The problem arises when those who view Jesus as God then conclude that Jesus created the world which clearly isn't the case as human beings are created. A human being did not create the world.

JW's understand a piece of the puzzle, but then extrapolate from that single piece a worldview that doesn't fit with reality. Likewise, those who view Jesus as God do the same thing with a completely different worldview that also doesn't fit with reality.

The former view God's word as a creation rather than what naturally emanates from God while the latter can't begin to address the fact that a human being cannot become a human being. It is the word that became flesh, therefore the word could not have been flesh prior to becoming flesh. What becomes flesh inhabits that flesh, but that flesh necessarily dies, and can never inherit the kingdom of heaven.

The flesh is not created in God's image. God's image is seen in the flesh just like water is seen within a glass.

?? The above may have been fun to type, but it's totally off-topic from KJVONLYism. Oh well, so was mine, I guess. On to the relevant topic.
 
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Leatherneck0311

Well-known member
For all earthly purposes Joe was Jesus' father. Under both Roman & Jewish law of the time, a man was considered the father of any child his wife had during their marriage, regardless of whom the bio father may have been. Jesus was born after Joe & Mary were married, so, on earth, he was considered to be Jesus' father. And the KJV calls them Jesus' PARENTS in Luke 2:41, & Mary calls Joseph HIS FATHER in Luke 2:48, not because she was stupid, but because she knew the law I mentioned above.
Any excuse seems to do to support a bad translation. Your loss not mine.
 

Marcha

Member
KJV .. I feel The Holy Spirit when I am reading it.

I was very depressed years ago and i found Yahoo Answers, Religious section. I couldn't pay attention for very long, so I started only reading scripture posted there, specifically KJV. It just caught my eye everytime I saw scripture there I read it. It was like the light for me. Such comfort.

I got a Bible and started studying. I was much better and not depressed at this time so i was hungry to learn more. My faith really saved my life!
 

robycop3

Well-known member
Personally, I don't have a problem with either version. I see how they both work because Jesus was a human being regardless of which manuscripts are used. The problem arises when those who view Jesus as God then conclude that Jesus created the world which clearly isn't the case as human beings are created. A human being did not create the world.

JW's understand a piece of the puzzle, but then extrapolate from that single piece a worldview that doesn't fit with reality. Likewise, those who view Jesus as God do the same thing with a completely different worldview that also doesn't fit with reality.

The former view God's word as a creation rather than what naturally emanates from God while the latter can't begin to address the fact that a human being cannot become a human being. It is the word that became flesh, therefore the word could not have been flesh prior to becoming flesh. What becomes flesh inhabits that flesh, but that flesh necessarily dies, and can never inherit the kingdom of heaven.

The flesh is not created in God's image. God's image is seen in the flesh just like water is seen within a glass.
Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." He was fully God before He became a man. And when He became a man, He was still God. And John 1:1 says He made everything there is.
 

robycop3

Well-known member
KJV .. I feel The Holy Spirit when I am reading it.

I was very depressed years ago and i found Yahoo Answers, Religious section. I couldn't pay attention for very long, so I started only reading scripture posted there, specifically KJV. It just caught my eye everytime I saw scripture there I read it. It was like the light for me. Such comfort.

I got a Bible and started studying. I was much better and not depressed at this time so i was hungry to learn more. My faith really saved my life!
I feel His presence when I read ANY valid Bible version.
 
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