Can the truth and reality of God be known without a believing mind?

Tercon

Well-known member
Not true. Paul said you were wrong. I believe Paul

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This verse is referring to the need for belief in order to know of anything's existence and occurrence, even the physical requires a believing mind in order to occur. So, if man knows that they can't know anything to exist or occur without a believing mind, then why do unbelievers think they should know God without believing He exists first?
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
This verse is referring to the need for belief in order to know of anything's existence and occurrence, even the physical requires a believing mind in order to occur. So, if man knows that they can't know anything to exist or occur without a believing mind, then why do unbelievers think they should know God without believing He exists first?

Okay... but is MORE than just this.....

I would recommend every person spend a few weeks and do an exhaustive exegesis of Romans 1. I believe if you do, you will find that Paul is referencing the world that existed after the fall of Adam and before the Great Flood. Those who were the direct descendents of Adam himself while he was still alive. Adam lived 7 generations and saw his family spread out dramatically on the earth. Even Enoch lived to know Adam personally. The very man that felt the breath of God giving him life....Enoch preached Jesus Christ. Eve was promised that a descendent from her seed would rescue humanity.

These people knew God.... yet rejected God.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Okay... but is MORE than just this.....

I would recommend every person spend a few weeks and do an exhaustive exegesis of Romans 1. I believe if you do, you will find that Paul is referencing the world that existed after the fall of Adam and before the Great Flood. Those who were the direct descendents of Adam himself while he was still alive. Adam lived 7 generations and saw his family spread out dramatically on the earth. Even Enoch lived to know Adam personally. The very man that felt the breath of God giving him life....Enoch preached Jesus Christ. Eve was promised that a descendent from her seed would rescue humanity.

These people knew God.... yet rejected God.

They didn't disbelieve in God, they believed and knew God.

Are you suggesting that Paul, Adam, Eve or Enoch knew God without believing Him as well? It changed when Jesus was resurrected, He embodied the truth and he done that in and with his believing mind. And we are to do the same, we are to embody the truth and reality of God in and with our believing minds.

You can't follow what you disbelieve to be true, we are made to follow the truth and reality of God.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
They didn't disbelieve in God, they believed and knew God.

They rejected the God they knew.

Are you suggesting that Paul, Adam, Eve or Enoch knew God without believing Him as well? It changed when Jesus was resurrected, He embodied the truth and he done that in and with his believing mind. And we are to do the same, we are to embody the truth and reality of God in and with our believing minds.

You can't follow what you disbelieve to be true, we are made to follow the truth and reality of God.

People know the Truth and reject that Truth all the time. They decide it is not for them.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Really, well the Bible would seem to disagree with your assessment.

Not only does belief have substance, belief is the basis of substance. Belief is the only means by which we have to mentally grasp concepts and the physical.

According to the Bible the only way to know God is through belief, a matter of fact the Bible talks of belief more than other single thing that people must do to know God.
Biblical "Belief" carries more baggage than the common term "belief" does in common usage (To give mental assent)

Mark 11:22-24 makes it a bit clearer, using the term as "Heart Belief" NOTHING DOUBTING as the circumstance under which the "Mountain" moves.

Obviously something much more than "Head belief" / Mental assent which doesn't mean spit.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Biblical "Belief" carries more baggage than the common term "belief" does in common usage (To give mental assent)

Mark 11:22-24 makes it a bit clearer, using the term as "Heart Belief" NOTHING DOUBTING as the circumstance under which the "Mountain" moves.

Obviously something much more than "Head belief" / Mental assent which doesn't mean spit.

We follow what we believe and just pay lip service to the rest. Faith or biblical belief requires loving the truth and reality more than anything else, because in the end all we have is the truth.

The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:1-15)
 

Tercon

Well-known member
They rejected the God they knew.

They didn't reject God, they just momentarily resorted back to the old man.

People know the Truth and reject that Truth all the time. They decide it is not for them.

They don't reject the truth and reality of God, their flesh just leads them astray for a time.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:20-25)
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:1-15)

Did you not read this verse?

They had shut their ears.
 

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
They didn't reject God, they just momentarily resorted back to the old man.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

I don't believe you. I believe the Scriptures.

They don't reject the truth and reality of God, their flesh just leads them astray for a time.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:20-25)

Huge jump there to a different context of speech.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

I believe the Scriptures. I don't believe you.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Did you not read this verse?

They had shut their ears.

Are you referring to believers or unbelievers? Because I am referring to believers.

Did you read Paul's response?

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:20-25)
 
Last edited:

praise_yeshua

Well-known member
Are you referring to believers or unbelievers?

Did you read Paul's response?

I referenced your previous post....

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:1-15)
 

Tercon

Well-known member
I referenced your previous post....

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:1-15)

This verse refers to unbelievers and not believers.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Biblical "Belief" carries more baggage than the common term "belief" does in common usage (To give mental assent)

Mark 11:22-24 makes it a bit clearer, using the term as "Heart Belief" NOTHING DOUBTING as the circumstance under which the "Mountain" moves.

Obviously something much more than "Head belief" / Mental assent which doesn't mean spit.

So, all your beliefs outside of "Biblical Belief" are as you say worth "spit"? How do you know about any truth without real belief?
 

civic

Well-known member
So, all your beliefs outside of "Biblical Belief" are as you say worth "spit"? How do you know about any truth without real belief?
All your beliefs are about a believing mind that doesn’t exist , it’s a figment of your imagination not found in scripture.

hope this helps !!!
 

Tercon

Well-known member
All your beliefs are about a believing mind that doesn’t exist ,

Actually all of my beliefs about and in God including my salvation and His grace originated in and with Him, He believes in and with me and that makes me know and relate to His Kingdom.

it’s a figment of your imagination not found in scripture.

If your salvation and His grace didn't originate in and with God, then just where does your knowledge of God and your salvation originate? You can't even know how and why God exists without His believing mind making it known to you silly. Or do you believe it all originated in and with you?
 
Last edited:

Slyzr

Well-known member
Jhn 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Next question??

Man's dead never to live .......

Ummmm .........

God what do we do with those born naturally through us?

Errrrrr ........

Were not sure ....... maybe baptize them ...... or do the confession thingy.

Does that mean they are NOT?

Not necessarily ......

So no con-version ....... is good.

god ..... responds ...... not sure about that .......

Could I interest you in a Pentecostal, or Charismatic. .

We got Baptists ....
 
Last edited:

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Man's dead never to live .......

Ummmm .........

God what do we do with those born naturally through us?

Errrrrr ........

Were not sure ....... maybe baptize them ...... or do the confession thingy.

Does that mean they are NOT?

Not necessarily ......

So no con-version ....... is good.

god ..... responds ...... not sure about that .......

Could I interest you in a Pentecostal, or Charismatic. .

We got Baptists ....
Chuckle.
 

Slyzr

Well-known member

So ..........

Bob, can I be your life?

And Bob's response ........

Well not really ..... but we got all kinds of religion's down here.

Do they have refreshments?

Bob's response ...... sure ..... they got kinds of "refreshments".

Bob ....... did any of those out pouring's, you talk about, amount to life?


Or just hope?

And ........
 
Last edited:

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Bob ....... did any of those out pouring's, you talk about, amount to life?
Chuckle!! The one in '66 (that got involved with in '71) proved to be very life-changing, for sure. Tended to "un-denominalize" those of us who embraced it, and altered the Assemblies of God for the better.

UNLIKE the revival in 1900, it didn't "Denominationalize" like the Pentecostal revival did.
 
Top