Can there be a coherent nontheistic metaphysics?

Nouveau

Well-known member
You're more than welcome to provide your source.
As are you. But of course you know full well that your caricature of the Big Bang as resulting from two atoms colliding and exploding is ludicrous nonsense, and that it has nothing to do with thr topic of biological evolution.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It assumes no such thing. It deals with the diversity of life after it got started, not with how the universe got started.
And this is the point.
If you don't think the two are connected, you don't understand the nature of evolution or why it's a lie.

If evolution didn't cause the origins of the cosmos, then they were designed, and that means they were created by an intelligence beyond anything that we're aware of, or can be unless that intelligence makes itself known to us.

Ironically, there is an intelligent agency which has made itself known to us. Their name is YHVH.

I take you are attempting to describe the Big Bang, in which case you have it utterly wrong, which makes me wonder at your claim to have studied physics.
Of course you question my education.
It's the only thing you have to justify your beliefs in evolution.

The university level physics I studied actually teaches cosmology and astrophysics.

So it's random from start to finish or it's not random at all, and is in fact designed from start to finish.


A lot of people can't trust their thoughts because a lot of people are very wrong about a lot of things.

CS Lewis is hoist by his own petard. If the result of there being no God is that you can't trust your thoughts, how would you know whether atheism might be true or not, because how would you know you could trust your own thoughts or not?
I know that my thoughts are reliable because the origin of my faculty for rational thinking comes from an intelligent agency, known as YHVH.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
If evolution didn't cause the origins of the cosmos, then they were designed...
An absurd false dichotomy. An obvious third option: the origin of the universe was uncaused.

The university level physics I studied actually teaches cosmology and astrophysics.
Is that where you learned that the Big Bang was caused by two colliding and exploding atoms? You should ask for a refund.

I know that my thoughts are reliable because the origin of my faculty for rational thinking comes from an intelligent agency, known as YHVH.
No more convincing than claiming your cognitive faculties are reliable because they were gifted to you by the benevolent King Goblin. Meanwhile, the rest of us know out cognitive faculties are reliable because they have evolved under selection pressure for general intelligence.
 

Tiburon

Active member
You're more than welcome to provide your source.
Take your pick. Just google Big Bang you'll get plenty of sources.
The Big Bang is the term used for what many consider to be the origin of our observable Universe. It was the sudden expansion of all the energy in the universe from what was a singularity. A point infinite density and temperature.
So nothing to do with two atoms colliding. It happened at a point before there were even atoms.
 

Tiburon

Active member
And this is the point.
If you don't think the two are connected, you don't understand the nature of evolution or why it's a lie.

If evolution didn't cause the origins of the cosmos, then they were designed, and that means they were created by an intelligence beyond anything that we're aware of, or can be unless that intelligence makes itself known to us.

Ironically, there is an intelligent agency which has made itself known to us. Their name is YHVH.


Of course you question my education.
It's the only thing you have to justify your beliefs in evolution.

The university level physics I studied actually teaches cosmology and astrophysics.

So it's random from start to finish or it's not random at all, and is in fact designed from start to finish.



I know that my thoughts are reliable because the origin of my faculty for rational thinking comes from an intelligent agency, known as YHVH.
The two are connected in that Evolution operates withing the Universe that originated at or just before the Big Bang. Evolution didn't begin until the formation of self replicating molecules.
We question your education because your explanation of The Big Bang seems to be at odds with your claimed education.
No intelligent agency has made itself known to me. Having read the Bible I doubt that the God it describes could be the originator of our universe in all it's wonder.
I know that my thoughts are reliable because the origin of my faculty for rational thinking is millions of years of trial and error. Success being survival and failure being death.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
As are you. But of course you know full well that your caricature of the Big Bang as resulting from two atoms colliding and exploding is ludicrous nonsense, and that it has nothing to do with thr topic of biological evolution.
Good, it sounds like you understand the sheer stupidity of a non-theistic cause of the cosmos.
Biological?
Not from what I read of the OP's title.

Can there be a coherent nontheistic metaphysics?​


Perhaps you should go back and start over again.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
An absurd false dichotomy. An obvious third option: the origin of the universe was uncaused.
uh........:oops: evolution..... is uncaused...... o_O

:ROFLMAO:


Is that where you learned that the Big Bang was caused by two colliding and exploding atoms? You should ask for a refund.
Actually, that's the whittled down version. I'd have to publish my paper to explain to you the string/brane theories of cosmology.
They all get whittled down to two uncaused sources, having an accidental collision, resulting in a cosmic-scaled explosive-breaching of non-inhabited space, which caused space, time, and coherence of matter.

So, I'm not the one who needs a refund. But it does raise the question of where you got yours.


No more convincing than claiming your cognitive faculties are reliable because they were gifted to you by the benevolent King Goblin. Meanwhile, the rest of us know out cognitive faculties are reliable because they have evolved under selection pressure for general intelligence.
Says the individual who has convinced himself he's the result of repetitive transitions of muck to intelligence, while completely ignoring the original cause of the uncaused. Like THAT has any intelligence to it.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Take your pick. Just google Big Bang you'll get plenty of sources.
This presents a problem for me.
You guys call it--- confirmation bias.
I.e., with the sheer volume of resources out there, I could just as easily pick a thousand articles which fit my worldviews, and miss the other 50 that support yours.
So, I need you to provide me with YOURS, so I don't just confirm my own biases.
Since there are so few which provide corroboration for yours, you should be able to readily provide them.

The Big Bang is the term used for what many consider to be the origin of our observable Universe. It was the sudden expansion of all the energy in the universe from what was a singularity. A point infinite density and temperature.
So nothing to do with two atoms colliding. It happened at a point before there were even atoms.
You have no idea--- indeed cosmologists have no idea--- what caused the singularity in the first place.
Why do you think String Theory, Brane Theory, and the dozens of other theories arose to explain it?
Where did those strings/branes or other energy fields originate from to begin with?
Or are you one who thinks that the 2nd law of thermodynamics only applies at the subatomic scale of an existing system?
If something is required, then why is the nothing acceptable, without questioning, when nothing gives rise to anything?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The two are connected in that Evolution operates withing the Universe that originated at or just before the Big Bang. Evolution didn't begin until the formation of self replicating molecules.
I don't buy that at all....
That you do, I find to be a matter of confirmation bias.
The big bang is an event that is the result of an extremely energetic, rapidly expanding "explosion."
Where/where/how/why/when/from what did the cause of the "singularity" arise?
I can provide you with numerous articles which provide a variety of causes, but they all come back to some previously unknown source.
I did my astrophysics class when Brane theory was the latest theory.
There are a lot more, and there are a lot of problems with them all.....
So..... I encourage you to learn, before you settle in on unknowns, and start asking lots, and lots of questions.
My education gave rise to more questions than there are answers.


We question your education because your explanation of The Big Bang seems to be at odds with your claimed education.
I'm ok with that. That's the nature of scientific inquiry.
Furthermore, I don't require, or want your capitulation.
I actually find it highly disconcerting that you need someone to capitulate to.
I think you'll find that the big bang isn't what you think it is.

No intelligent agency has made itself known to me.
And? Did you ask? If you're not asking the questions, why would they?
I had no idea any of you existed until I showed up on this forum, so am I to use your logic, and claim you're not actually a real being, because you never bothered making yourself real to me?
Having read the Bible I doubt that the God it describes could be the originator of our universe in all it's wonder.
And.... your opinion on this is reliable...... why?


I know that my thoughts are reliable because the origin of my faculty for rational thinking is millions of years of trial and error. Success being survival and failure being death.
so... YOU've had millions of years of trial and error to working out the thinking processes?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
And this is the point.
If you don't think the two are connected, you don't understand the nature of evolution or why it's a lie.
Evolution doesn't disprove God. There are very many Christians who believe evolution true.
If evolution didn't cause the origins of the cosmos, then they were designed, and that means they were created by an intelligence beyond anything that we're aware of, or can be unless that intelligence makes itself known to us.
This is utterly bizarre, you betray your ignorance of science so badly here. No one, except you, evens considers evolution might cause the origins of the cosmos. Evolution as we understand it has to do with the diversity of life once life has got started.
Of course you question my education.
It's the only thing you have to justify your beliefs in evolution.
I question your claims of education because you seem to have no idea of what the big bang and evolution are all about.
The university level physics I studied actually teaches cosmology and astrophysics.
Then why talk about the universe starting from two atoms colliding? That's utterly wrong.
So it's random from start to finish or it's not random at all, and is in fact designed from start to finish.
This is a common mistake. If the universe is natural, it's not random. If natural, it could only act according to it's properties, which means it's not random.
I know that my thoughts are reliable because the origin of my faculty for rational thinking comes from an intelligent agency, known as YHVH.
But, atheism is true so your unreliable mind just told you that, right?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Evolution doesn't disprove God. There are very many Christians who believe evolution true.
It's not about who believes evolution is true. It's about whether evolution is actually true, and demonstrable or not.
To me, evidence of evolution would be construction workers who have an extra set of arms/hands, and mothers who have two pairs of eyes.
the failure of this demonstrates to me that it's not.
Furthermore, let's follow your logic.
People who call themselves christian, are people who say that God is right, humans are wrong, and we're limited in our worldview to only know what God has provided us, and through that provision, what can be discovered.
As God has plainly stated he created the cosmos, and spoke it into existence, that his word sustains the cosmos/all that exists, and death did not exist until sin entered the world......... just how does it work that we call God a liar, by saying it evolved, and he did not create it?
That wouldn't be very Jesus like to call God a liar.
The devil called God a liar in Genesis 3.

So..... you really don't want to use the--- well other people who claim to be christian think that evolution is true-- routine. It doesn't fly here.



This is utterly bizarre, you betray your ignorance of science so badly here. No one, except you, evens considers evolution might cause the origins of the cosmos. Evolution as we understand it has to do with the diversity of life once life has got started.
Well, as you've provided nothing but your own words to demonstrate this, I'll take it that you simply have the desperate need to appear coherent, without actually having any basis for your desperation.



I question your claims of education because you seem to have no idea of what the big bang and evolution are all about.
Not my problem.
Then why talk about the universe starting from two atoms colliding? That's utterly wrong.
So, you were there then?
Because if not, you have no clue, and the only thing you're doing is betraying your ignorance of science.

In fact, let's do it this way, because I'm really weary of the way you throw that word-- science--- around. It's embarrassing to thinking people.


Science is the pursuit and application of knowledge and understanding of the natural and social world following a systematic methodology based on evidence.

Scientific methodology includes the following:

  • Objective observation: Measurement and data (possibly although not necessarily using mathematics as a tool)
  • Evidence
  • Experiment and/or observation as benchmarks for testing hypotheses
  • Induction: reasoning to establish general rules or conclusions drawn from facts or examples
  • Repetition
  • Critical analysis
  • Verification and testing: critical exposure to scrutiny, peer review and assessment

So...... do you want to try this again?
Science does not mean what you think it means. You're using the word as though its a religious ideology, which should be worshiped, and idolized.




This is a common mistake. If the universe is natural, it's not random. If natural, it could only act according to it's properties, which means it's not random.
Why don't you show me the evidence you've developed for this belief if yours.

But, atheism is true so your unreliable mind just told you that, right?
Evidence?
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
It's not about who believes evolution is true. It's about whether evolution is actually true, and demonstrable or not.
To me, evidence of evolution would be construction workers who have an extra set of arms/hands, and mothers who have two pairs of eyes.
the failure of this demonstrates to me that it's not.
Are you serious? You obviously have no idea of what evolution is about, as well as cosmology. Too much acid steve?

Furthermore, let's follow your logic.
People who call themselves christian, are people who say that God is right, humans are wrong, and we're limited in our worldview to only know what God has provided us, and through that provision, what can be discovered.
As God has plainly stated he created the cosmos, and spoke it into existence, that his word sustains the cosmos/all that exists, and death did not exist until sin entered the world......... just how does it work that we call God a liar, by saying it evolved, and he did not create it?
That wouldn't be very Jesus like to call God a liar.
The devil called God a liar in Genesis 3.

So..... you really don't want to use the--- well other people who claim to be christian think that evolution is true-- routine. It doesn't fly here.
You betray your unsophisticated thinking yet again. Christians who believe evolution think God created us via evolution.

Well, as you've provided nothing but your own words to demonstrate this, I'll take it that you simply have the desperate need to appear coherent, without actually having any basis for your desperation.
Look it up yourself.

Not my problem.
Your arrogant ignorance is leading you to wrong ideas about reality.
So, you were there then?
You were?
Because if not, you have no clue, and the only thing you're doing is betraying your ignorance of science.
How would you know? You've shown you have no idea about science.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Are you serious? You obviously have no idea of what evolution is about, as well as cosmology. Too much acid steve?
And yet you still offer nothing with which to take you seriously.

You betray your unsophisticated thinking yet again. Christians who believe evolution think God created us via evolution.
That you think calling God a liar is sophisticated, and something to be lauded is what I find sad.


Look it up yourself.
Why? Are you too inept to support your claims?
Why is that WiF?
For someone who seems to be so ready to attack different ideologies, one would think you'd be all over providing support for those ideas of yours.

Your arrogant ignorance is leading you to wrong ideas about reality.
Curious...... Why do you think I don't lean on my own understanding in the first place?

You should spend more time learning, and less talking.




5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.
8 It will be health to your flesh, And strength to your bones.



You were?
No silly!
I know the God who was there. In fact, my Brother is the one who created it all, and sustains it by the word of his power.

John 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high......

16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

God who created all things through Jesus Christ





How would you know? You've shown you have no idea about science.

I wouldn't know.
You provide nothing by which I'm able to ascertain your knowledge of science. So far you keep using the word as though its a religious believe.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
And yet you still offer nothing with which to take you seriously.
Your usual empty remark mirroring what someone has said against you. Can't think of anything original?
That you think calling God a liar is sophisticated, and something to be lauded is what I find sad.
Another remark not remotely answering the point it replies to.
Why? Are you too inept to support your claims?
Not at all. I just don't see the point in bothering with someone who won't, and i'm beginning to think can't, try to understand what anyone says.
Curious...... Why do you think I don't lean on my own understanding in the first place?
Don't tempt me.
<Irrelevant bible quotes snipped>


 

SteveB

Well-known member
Your usual empty remark mirroring what someone has said against you. Can't think of anything original?
Well, I'm still waiting for this astounding evidence you keep failing to provide. I'm guessing this means it's real doozy.

Another remark not remotely answering the point it replies to.
As I said, I'm still waiting for this utterly astonishing evidence you keep saying is enough to silence me.
I figured after 11 years, you would've provided it already, but here we are.... 11 years later, and nothing.
Not at all. I just don't see the point in bothering with someone who won't, and i'm beginning to think can't, try to understand what anyone says
So, you have no idea what evidence actually is, but think you need to keep mentioning?


Don't tempt me.
<Irrelevant bible quotes snipped>
If they were actually irrelevant, you wouldn't needed to have snipped them.
Having snipped them demonstrates that they were entirely relevant, but they convicted you of your sin, and you needed to escape them.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Well, I'm still waiting for this astounding evidence you keep failing to provide. I'm guessing this means it's real doozy.


As I said, I'm still waiting for this utterly astonishing evidence you keep saying is enough to silence me.
I figured after 11 years, you would've provided it already, but here we are.... 11 years later, and nothing.

So, you have no idea what evidence actually is, but think you need to keep mentioning?



If they were actually irrelevant, you wouldn't needed to have snipped them.
Having snipped them demonstrates that they were entirely relevant, but they convicted you of your sin, and you needed to escape them.
Another content free post from you.
 

rossum

Well-known member
That you think calling God a liar is sophisticated, and something to be lauded is what I find sad.
God may, or may not, be a liar. However, what is certain is that some human interpretations of the Bible are contrary to the observed facts of the world. Do you accept that human interpretations of the Bible can be wrong?
 
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