Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?

5) Sub Tuum Praesidum​

We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God;
Despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.
Amen."
=======================

And it came to pass, that,​
as he was praying in a certain place,​
when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him,​
​
that would be John​
​
Lord, teach us to pray,​
as John (the Baptist) also taught his disciples.​
​
And he said unto them,​
When ye pray, say,​
Our Father which art in heaven,​
Hallowed be thy name.​
Thy kingdom come.​
Thy will be done,​
as in heaven, so in earth.​
​
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.​
​
4 And forgive us our sins;​
for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.​
And lead us not into temptation;​
but deliver us from evil.​

but the ole Whore says
pray to her, the Queen of Heaven

We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God;​
Despise not our petitions in our necessities,​
but deliver us always from all dangers,​
O glorious and blessed Virgin.​
Amen."​

and they will;
when the ole "Queenie" comes
and the Plagues are falling
they will screem out
"Protect us from the wrath of God"

Please. oh please, oh pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

The Ole Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah
read and read well
 
Bonnie said:
If following Christ is the RCC focus, then why all the focus on Mary? Why all the prayers to Mary for protection, for comfort, and even for salvation? Why the prayers to her to save them even from their Savior's wrath?

On our last cruise, we went to several cities in Mexico, Costa Rica, plus Cartegena in Columbia. In one of these towns, we saw a cathedral in which Mary is the centerpiece of the church. A large picture of her is over the main altar in the center of the church. An angel on either side points to her picture. Joseph is off to one side, to the right of the one angel, and a statue of Jesus, pointing to his heart, is to the left of the other angel.

Mary, not Jesus, is the centerpiece of this church...

So much for your church's focus being on Jesus.
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No, Jesus is the focus of our church. We just acknowledge God's exultation of Mary.

As Peter tells us, "Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, so that he exult you in due time."

Mary had humbled herself in this life, therefore God has highly exalted her. We just acknowledge what God has done.
 
Bonnie said:
Here is one prayer that actually pleads for deliverance:

(from a Catholic website I cannot link to, ucatholic.com) "Deliver us from all dangers." Nothing intercessory here, but the pray-er expects Mary to hear him/her and actually SAVE the person from all dangers--something ONLY God can do!
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Really? Only God can save a person from all dangers? When a firefighter saves someone from a fire---did God or the firefighter save the person?

See what happens when you take someone in an overly literal fashion? I know what you meant by your statement. I know you did not at all intend to suggest that you meant to deny that we can save people from dangers. What you meant--I think---was to suggest that only God can save us--yet the prayer suggests that Mary can save us too. I am suggesting that such an interpretation is overly literalistic.

The prayer is poetic. We do not literally believe that Mary is saving us from danger. What is unexpressed in the prayer--but taken for granted that people know--is that if we are saved from some danger it is through Mary's prayers for us--not her own power. But you are a Protestant--and so wouldn't know that---or think that way.
Bonnie said:
deLiguori, in one of his execrable prayers to Mary in his book, THE GLORIES OF MARY, calls her the "ONLY hope for sinners." What is Jesus? So much chopped liver?
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Boy you people love dumping on poor DeLigouri.

For starters, hope means desire, coupled with the expectation that God will give us the graces necessary to achieve our desire. Thus, the prayer means "Mary is our only desire, coupled with the expectation that God will give us the Grace to achieve our desire."

And what does that mean? Well, Mary is for Catholics the type and figure of the Church. Thus, what Mary possesses now--namely--the fullness of redemption----WE have only in part. We desire one day to have the fullness of redemption--and we believe that God will give us the graces necessary to achieve that. That is what it means to say that "Mary is the ONLY hope of sinners."
Bonnie said:
How about this beaut: (from vatican.va)

Mary is the source of true love? How utterly absurd! Mary protects and saves us? Ridiculous! Mary is our ONLY refuge, our hope, our salvation"??? Blasphemy! GOD is "our refuge and our strength" and "a very present help in trouble." Mary is all of these things? So, did God lie in these quotes from the OT?

So, please do not try to tell me that Catholics don't pray to Mary for salvation! After all, your own CCC calls her the "cause of our salvation" does it not?
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Let's assume the CCC does. God is the ultimate and primacy cause of our salvation. Mary, however, is a secondary cause--since God came into the world through Mary. Thus, it is correct to say--in a poetic sense that Mary is the cause of our salvation.
Bonnie said:
AND co-mediatrix. I wasn't thinking of that but since your brought it up...this is not yet dogma in your church but is still taught by some of your church's theologians, much to their shame! But we need no co-anything for we have the one perfect intercessor and Savior for us with the Father--Christ Jesus our Lord! And it is the HS Who helps us when we do not know how to pray as we ought to.

Why isn't God good enough for Catholics?
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It isn't a question of God being "Good enough."
 
romishpopishorganist said:
And Catholics agree with that too. Only Jesus can save anyone's soul. No Catholic believes Mary can save.

"But, but, but, wait!" you bleat at me....."Catholics say Mary is co-redemptrix!"

1) That doctrine at this time is neither condemned, nor officially taught. It is considered heterodox. What this means is that Catholics are free to disbelieve it or defend and believe it as their conscience directs. Both Pope Benedict and Pope Francis have distanced themselves from this doctrine. They are not comfortable with it. Though in my opinion they are condemning misunderstandings of the doctrine--misunderstandings--very similar to what YOU and your buddies here think the doctrine is.

2) For those (such as me) who defend the doctrine, the doctrine does NOT assert that Mary can save. Mary is co-redemptrix only in a secondary sense. Her mediation depends entirely on Christ. Any role she plays as "coredemptrix" depends entirely on Christ.

Now--of course--you still do not like that--and fine. Whatever. My point is that whether you like the doctrine or not---the doctrine does not assert that Mary has any power of redemption in and of herself. Everything Mary is depends on Christ. Without Christ, Mary is nothing.
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But she can yank you our of purgatory early, if you have jumped through the right hoops whilst alive.
 
dingoling. said:
Jesus told us to listen to the church. Scripture doesn't tell us to listen to scripture alone.
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Dear Strawman.
No one said you couldn't listen to anything else:

From Catholic.com
the principle of sola scriptura ("Scripture alone"), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized

from New Advent
"The [first] objective [or formal] principle proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament, to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice (not the only source)"
" Protestantism, however, by no means despises or rejects church authority as such, but only subordinates it to, and measures its value by, the Bible,"
 
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romishpopishorganist said:
Yes, I know that most Protestants believe that is idolatry. THAT is what I do not understand and never will.

Why can't Protestants tell the difference between "honor" and "worship?"
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It's CATHOLICS, who don't know the difference!!!!

In the case of the woman with the demonized daughter:

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

The ESSENCE OF WORSHIP is "HELP ME". That's exactly what Catholics want Mary (or "Saint Whomever") to do. HELP THEM!!! Twist God's arm in their favor, because neither God NOR Jesus can be trusted to do the right thing without "human council".

And yet they claim that they "don't worship their physically dead "saints", or Jesus' mom.

And "protestants" can't tell the difference????

GET REAL!!!!!
 
dingoling. said:
No, Jesus is the focus of our church. We just acknowledge God's exultation of Mary.
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Your church goes far beyond mere "acknowledgement" of Mary. But where does the Bible say that God exalted Mary above everyone else on earth?

So, Catholics cannot acknowledge Mary and what God did through her without praying to her, ascribing powers and titles to her that are nowhere found in Scripture, and making her co-mediatrix and even co-redemptrix? Is that it?

If your church is all about Jesus, then why does the Rosary have 10X the "Hail Marys" as "Our Fathers" for people to pray?
dingoling. said:
As Peter tells us, "Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, so that he exult you in due time."
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That is about ALL believers. Not just Mary.
dingoling. said:
Mary had humbled herself in this life, therefore God has highly exalted her. We just acknowledge what God has done.
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God never highly exalted Mary over everyone else. But He will exalt ALL those who humble themselves before God. Does that mean we can then pray to those people, as Catholics do to Mary?
 
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Bob Carabbio said:
It's CATHOLICS, who don't know the difference!!!!

In the case of the woman with the demonized daughter:

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

The ESSENCE OF WORSHIP is "HELP ME". That's exactly what Catholics want Mary (or "Saint Whomever") to do. HELP THEM!!! Twist God's arm in their favor, because neither God NOR Jesus can be trusted to do the right thing without "human council".

And yet they claim that they "don't worship their physically dead "saints", or Jesus' mom.

And "protestants" can't tell the difference????

GET REAL!!!!!
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You are just too logical for Catholics on here, Bob! :p
 
dingoling. said:
Jesus told us to listen to the church. Scripture doesn't tell us to listen to scripture alone.
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I am super glad, I was never introduced to the rcc as a child. And instead got an education in a public school the whole time I was growing up.

The rcc had long ago, stopped following Jesus. And let idolatry take Jesus' place. It is very evil to lead people away from trusting in Christ. And for some reason you think that by following your cultic group it will absolve you of any responsibility for what you know is said or done that is wrong. NOPE, it will all be on you. For you, all by your lonesome choose to follow it, all the while having knowledge that there is a problem within it.

You have chosen to follow what will indeed bite you in the behind in a real way you won't like. But you know that, and want to do it anyway. And YOU will be the one to pay for it, not your cultic institution.... YOU. Because your trying to get us to do evil like you do. Your rcc rituals can't wash this away.

You say... "listen to the church" which encourages you practice idolatry, leading you further and further away from actually knowing Jesus. It is real evident that the rcc is your god. Not Jesus. By your own words, you attempt to discourage people from following Jesus.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
It's CATHOLICS, who don't know the difference!!!!

In the case of the woman with the demonized daughter:

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

The ESSENCE OF WORSHIP is "HELP ME". That's exactly what Catholics want Mary (or "Saint Whomever") to do. HELP THEM!!! Twist God's arm in their favor, because neither God NOR Jesus can be trusted to do the right thing without "human council".

And yet they claim that they "don't worship their physically dead "saints", or Jesus' mom.

And "protestants" can't tell the difference????

GET REAL!!!!!
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Excellent post !!!
 
dingoling. said:
Jesus said that whoever listens to you listens to me.
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What is the context when He said this? We have been over this before. Catholics must have a list of canned talking points they get from their church, that they trot out, when non-Catholics bring up certain points to them, and Bible verses.

Did Jesus say "Whoever listens to the RCC pope listens to Me"?
 
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Bonnie said:
Where did Jesus tell us to listen to the church? Where did He tell us to accept blindly the teachings of false prophets who go against Scripture? Where did He tell us to lock our discernment in a box and throw away the key?
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The discernment of scripture is what led me away from the false teachings of the nCCs and to the truth found in the Catholic church.
 
Bonnie said:
What is the context when He said this? We have been over this before. Catholics must have a list of canned talking points they get from their church, that they trot out, when non-Catholics bring up certain points to them, and Bible verses?

Did Jesus say "Whoever listens to the RCC pope listens to Me"?
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Jesus left the Pope in charge of His church until his return. See Matthew 16.

Did Jesus ever say that scripture alone is the final/sole authority for his church?
 
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