Cannot defend the Trinity

AMOSFIVE

Active member
Ive recently been put in the position of defending the Holy Trinity with somebody who was a KJO individual. Frankly, I couldn’t defend it using the KJV of the Bible. Is this one of the doctrinal differences that arise when different versions of the Bible are used? Or is there no scriptural evidence of the Trinity? Help please.
 
"Trinity" is nothing but another "Religious Buzz word" with a "Theology attached to it".

Jesus, on the other hand, specifically mentioned the FATHER, the SON, and the Holy Spirit.

SO as Far as I'm concerned, IGNORING the "Theology", God is ONE - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Simple as that. No "Theology about a "Trinity" required.
 
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Ive recently been put in the position of defending the Holy Trinity with somebody who was a KJO individual. Frankly, I couldn’t defend it using the KJV of the Bible. Is this one of the doctrinal differences that arise when different versions of the Bible are used? Or is there no scriptural evidence of the Trinity? Help please.
Matthew 3 and Jesus’ baptism easily supports the Trinity. As I heard someone say, if oneness is true, Jesus is a really good ventriloquist.

Then there’s the High Priestly prayer in John 17. Jesus was not praying to Himself but His Father. Also, if Jesus only, AKA oneness, is true, then He had forsaken Himself.

I don’t use the KJV very much, but it can be easily used to support the Trinity.
 
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According to John 1:1-3; the Word is God.

Well; God is an eternal being, i.e. He always was, He always is, and He always shall
be. In other words: there was never a moment of time in the distant past when the
Word didn't exist, nor is there ever a moment of time in the present when the Word
doesn't exist, nor will there ever be a moment of time in the distant future when
the Word won't exist, viz: there has never been, nor will there ever be, a pause in
the Word's existence.

So; when the Word came into the world as a human being per John 1:14, his
existence as the Word didn't stop. He continued to exist as the Word because God
cannot stop His existence as God.

In John 1:1-3, the Word is a spirit being who exists, in all points, as God.

In John 1:14, the Word is a physical being who exists, in all points, as Man.

The Jehovah's Witnesses insist it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being
and a physical being simultaneously. Now, I don't know that it's possible for
someone to exist as two physical beings simultaneously, or as two spirit beings
simultaneously, but I entertain not the slightest hint of sensible doubt that Jesus
Christ exists as a spirit being and a physical being simultaneously because not only
do John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 verify it; but so does 1Cor 15:45
_
 
Not ignoring these posts - merely digesting all the info I’ve been mulling over. Thank you all who have responded.
 
Ive recently been put in the position of defending the Holy Trinity with somebody who was a KJO individual. Frankly, I couldn’t defend it using the KJV of the Bible. Is this one of the doctrinal differences that arise when different versions of the Bible are used? Or is there no scriptural evidence of the Trinity? Help please.

1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The Biblical term for "trinity" is "Godhead."

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 
Ive recently been put in the position of defending the Holy Trinity with somebody who was a KJO individual. Frankly, I couldn’t defend it using the KJV of the Bible.

There is only one God.
Galatians 3:20
Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. (KVV)

The Father is God.
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (KJV)

The Lord Jesus is God.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (KJV)
Whenever a believer uses the expression "my God" in the Bible it always refers to the Almighty.

The Holy Spirit is God.
Acts 21:11
And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. (KJV)
New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): In Acts 21:11 Agabus (like the prophets of the OT; cf. Isa. 20:2; Jer. 13:1 ff.) carried out a symbolic action with Paul's girdle (a long cloth worn about the waist), to indicate the coming arrest of Paul. "The accompanying word of interpretation 'Thus says the Holy Spirit!' corresponds to the OT 'Thus says Yahweh!'" (E. Haenchen, The Acts of the Apostles, 1971, 602) (3:121, Ready, F. Selter).
 
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Ive recently been put in the position of defending the Holy Trinity with somebody who was a KJO individual. Frankly, I couldn’t defend it using the KJV of the Bible. Is this one of the doctrinal differences that arise when different versions of the Bible are used? Or is there no scriptural evidence of the Trinity? Help please.
Looks like this hasn't entirely been resolved.

Who among the Trinity do you want biblical references for?

Or do you already have them, but can't see the same words used in the kjv as in the translation you're using?
 
Looks like this hasn't entirely been resolved.

Who among the Trinity do you want biblical references for?

Or do you already have them, but can't see the same words used in the kjv as in the translation you're using?
Just digesting and meditating over the issue. For now I have what I need. I may be back with more later.
 
Greetings AMOSFIVE,
Just digesting and meditating over the issue. For now I have what I need. I may be back with more later.
The Bible does not teach the Trinity as there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Ive recently been put in the position of defending the Holy Trinity with somebody who was a KJO individual. Frankly, I couldn’t defend it using the KJV of the Bible. Is this one of the doctrinal differences that arise when different versions of the Bible are used? Or is there no scriptural evidence of the Trinity? Help please.
I suggest that a correct understanding of this subject can be established no matter what Bible we use, as long as care is taken in determining what a particular verse is actually saying, and also by comparing other translations and context. There is some bias in most translations, and if anything the bias is towards the Trinity, and there is a Trinitarian bias in the KJV in some of the verses.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
is there no scriptural evidence of the Trinity? Help please.
translate prophets Literally, and read carefully the prophets - His Spirit, He and His son are there from the start!

But many were trained to read His words 'metaphorically only'.
 
Greetings AMOSFIVE,

The Bible does not teach the Trinity

Yes, actually, it does.

as there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Yes, the Bible teaches this.
But none of that denies the Trinity.

I suggest that a correct understanding of this subject can be established no matter what Bible we use, as long as care is taken in determining what a particular verse is actually saying, and also by comparing other translations and context.

I agree 100%.
The Trinity can be proven regardless of whether we use the KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, etc.
Personally, I prefer to use the NA28 Greek New Testament.

There is some bias in most translations,

Translation: Any translation Trevor doesn't like, and teaches contrary to Trever, is by definition "biased".

Do you read Koine Greek Trevor?
I do.
I would suggest to you that if you don't, then you have ZERO BASIS for making any claims of "bias" in Bible translations.

and if anything the bias is towards the Trinity, and there is a Trinitarian bias in the KJV in some of the verses.

Again, it appears that you have no clue what you're talking about.
There are two places in the KJV which support the Trinity which I believe or incorrect renderings, namely 1 John 5:7 and 1 Tim. 3:16. However, it is overly simplistic and arguably false to claim it is by "Trinitarian bias". The rendering of "God was manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16) was based on manuscripts available at the time which read precisely that, so all the translators did was accurately translate the Greek. No "bias". The history of 1 John 5:7 is complex, and again there were marginal readings in the manuscripts with the text in question, along with a manuscript having it in the main text.

Fortunately, the Trinity is so prevalent in the Bible, we don't need either of those two passages to support it.
 
Greetings Theo1689,
There are two places in the KJV which support the Trinity which I believe or incorrect renderings, namely 1 John 5:7 and 1 Tim. 3:16. However, it is overly simplistic and arguably false to claim it is by "Trinitarian bias".
I suggest that the KJV translation of Exodus 3:14 appears to be Trinitarian bias because they also have tried to match this with John 8:58 which is also translated with a Trinitarian bias.
Exodus 3:12–14 (KJV): 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


An earlier translation by Tyndale translated this in the future tense as "I will be" and this is also the reading offered in the RV and RSV margins:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.[color]
John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28, John 4:26, John 9:9.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings Theo1689,

I suggest that the KJV translation of Exodus 3:14 appears to be Trinitarian bias because they also have tried to match this with John 8:58 which is also translated with a Trinitarian bias.
Exodus 3:12–14 (KJV): 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 (KJV): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


An earlier translation by Tyndale translated this in the future tense as "I will be" and this is also the reading offered in the RV and RSV margins:
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.[color]
John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28, John 4:26, John 9:9.

Kind regards
Trevor

All you're doing is giving bankrupt assertions based on your anti-Trinitarian bias.

How many years have you studied Koine Greek?
How many years have you studied Hebrew?

Like I said, discussion with you is worthless, since all you do is proffer worthless anti-Trinitarian rhetoric when you have no clue what you're talking about.

Why would you EVER think that Tyndale would have more expert Hebrew and Greek understanding than the best Hebrew and Greek minds today?
 
The Trinity is called the Godhead in the King James Bible. It is one of the easiest things to understand. The difficult part is believing it.

Two verses are all One needs...

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."


Similar to how Software Code creates an image on a computer monitor, the Word of God generates physical matter. Physical matter is the 'things which are seen', created by that which is 'not seen'. A similar concept may be found in the movie The Matrix.

Here is where the Godhead comes in...

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and
Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"


Again, the 'Invisible Things of Him' is the Word of God. We see the Word of God through physical matter, in other words, through the 'things that are made'.

Here is the part most folks will have difficulty believing, although it is right there in their Bibles...

Romans 1:20 goes on to state that physical matter is made of something the KJV calls the Godhead. In other words, all matter in the Universe is made of something that has three parts to it (Trinity). Can you guess what those three parts are?

Here is a hint...

Acts 1:8
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."


The Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead/Trinity. The Bible states that it is Power... literally. In other words, the Electron.

All Matter in the Universe is made of the Godhead. One of the components is the Electron.

Do you understand?
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
How many years have you studied Koine Greek? How many years have you studied Hebrew?
Perhaps you could explain how your supposed years of studying Koine Greek. and supposed years of studying Hebrew actually gives a definitive answer to the two passages that I mentioned. We have covered some of this on another thread, and your wrong claim based on your "Koine Greek knowledge" and avoidance of John 4:26, John 8:24,28 and John 9:9, and perhaps you may like to answer the question that I addressed to johnny guitar on John 8:56, either here or on that thread.
Why would you EVER think that Tyndale would have more expert Hebrew and Greek understanding than the best Hebrew and Greek minds today?
Again a claim to great knowledge, but in addition to Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins, there is AB Davidson in his article in Hastings Bible Dictionary. I also have other resources that support the future tense for "Ehyeh" in Exodus 3:12,14. Refer also Exodus 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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According to John 1:1-3; the Word is God.

Well; God is an eternal being, i.e. He always was, He always is, and He always shall
be. In other words: there was never a moment of time in the distant past when the
Word didn't exist, nor is there ever a moment of time in the present when the Word
doesn't exist, nor will there ever be a moment of time in the distant future when
the Word won't exist, viz: there has never been, nor will there ever be, a pause in
the Word's existence.
The Jehovah's Witnesses also claim that their god is "a spirit". In both cases the error of this articulation spotlights that this god is not only not supreme, but one that is subject to classification. "An eternal being" is subject to classification, but the biblical God isn't.

To speak of the word as if it were a thing that exists also affirms this mentality. One doesn't have to think long and hard to come to the conclusion that existence must necessarily be eternal. Existence can never not exist. Existence cannot come to an end without violating the law of non-contradiction. Therefore, the word must be synonymous with existence, or else it is no more than some thing that exists because of existence. The reality is that all things that exist come into existence through Christ. They are synonymous. Nothing can exist without existence.
So; when the Word came into the world as a human being per John 1:14, his
existence as the Word didn't stop. He continued to exist as the Word because God
cannot stop His existence as God.
This is Begging the Question. God is the origin of existence (1 Corinthians 8:6) Existence belongs to God. That's what it means when you say "His existence", but it also spotlights the fact that existence here is referring to the Genitive of Possession. In other words, existence is an attribute of or from God who is the origin of existence rather than the Verb to Be.
 
Perhaps you could explain how your supposed years of studying Koine Greek. and supposed years of studying Hebrew actually gives a definitive answer to the two passages that I mentioned.

This is why "discussion" with you is a complete waste of time.

Actually, I never commented "my" years of studying Greek or Hebrew, since I wasn't the one making false accusations of "biased translations". YOU made that bogus claim. And in order to have any credibility in judging the accuracy of translations, you have to actually have KNOWLEDGE in what is being translated.

And you clearly don't.

We have covered some of this on another thread, and your wrong claim based on your "Koine Greek knowledge" and avoidance of John 4:26, John 8:24,28 and John 9:9, and perhaps you may like to answer the question that I addressed to johnny guitar on John 8:56, either here or on that thread.

Excuse me?!
You are falsely accusing ME of "avoidance" of discussing passages?!

YOU are the one who keeps RUNNING AWAY from John 1:1, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Rom. 9:5, Phil. 2:5-6, Col. 2:9, Tit. 2:13, Heb. 1:8, 2 Pet. 1:1, etc. etc., which I have brought up from the BEGINNING, and you keep RUNNING AWAY from.

Then you bring up John 4:26, 8:24,28, and 9:9, which have ZERO bearing on the issue concerning the deity of Christ.

Don't think I don't know what's going on... You have a "script" that you want to follow, even though you're completely ignorant of Greek. And I've knocked you off your script, and once you're off you're script, you're completely lost, because you have no clue what you're talking about.

Again a claim to great knowledge, but in addition to Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins, there is AB Davidson in his article in Hastings Bible Dictionary.

So let's see... You appeal to Tyndale from the 16th century, and a 19th century minister who taught Hebrew, with no evidence that he actually knew Greek. I wonder why you would cherry-pick such an eclectic group of writers?

Oh, I know! I know!

You picked them BECAUSE they support your anti-Trinitarian bias!

I also have other resources that support the future tense for "Ehyeh" in Exodus 3:12,14. Refer also Exodus 6:1-8.

Yes, I'm sure you do.
Anyone can find "scholars" to support ANY theological position.
This is called "cherry-picking".
THIS is called "bias".

That is NOT how you study issues when you are interested in TRUTH.


What a colossal waste of time you are.
 
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