Cannot defend the Trinity

Here is the poster who is a complete waste of time, and engages in blatant double standards. He runs away from passages I bring up, but then he brings up IRRELEVANT passages, and expects me to addrress them, even though he won't address my RELEVANT verses.

So be it.

and avoidance of John 4:26, John 8:24,28 and John 9:9,

My "avoidance".
These are IRRELEVANT to the issue, and you ignored MY (relevant) passages. But this is it. The poster has no clue what he's talking about. He doesn't know Greek, he doesn't know how to address all the "Jesuss is God" passages, all he has is his script, and his script means he has to challenge people to address these irrelevant verses.

John 4:26 λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἐγώ εἰμι, ὁ λαλῶν σοι.

Here "egw eimi" doesn't stand alone, it is in apposition to "o lalwn soi" ("the one speaking to you").

John 8:24 εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν.

Jesus had just told them a number of things in v. 23:
"I am from above"
"I am not of this world"

So when He says, "If you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins", he is referring back to those things He ssaid about himself. The CONTEXT determines the rendering here.

Btw, your argument can work both ways. You're right that this text doesn't have "he" after "I am". So it could very well be ANOTHER reference to Jesus being the "I AM" from Ex. 3:14! ;)

John 8:28 εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ὅταν ὑψώσητε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, τότε γνώσεσθε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι, καὶ ἀπ’ ἐμαυτοῦ ποιῶ οὐδέν, ἀλλὰ καθὼς ἐδίδαξέ με ὁ πατήρ μου, ταῦτα λαλῶ.

The "I am" here clearly relates back to His identity as "the son of Man", which is why the clarifying addition of "he" is warranted.

And of course, if you knew the FIRST thing about Koine Greek, you would know that.


In all three of your alleged "counterexamples", there is a referent that validates the addition of "He". There is no such referent in John 8:58. So your argument is bogus.




In the meantime, I wonder if you are going to stop RUNNING AWAY from the following?:

Isa. 9:6 For to us a child is born, ... and his name shall be called ... Mighty God,
John 1:1 ... and the Word was God. ... 14 And the Word became flesh ...

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!
Acts 20:28 ... the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Rom. 9:5 is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Phil. 2:5 ... Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, ...
Col. 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily
Titus 2:13 ... the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Heb. 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
2Pet. 1:1 ... the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
YOU are the one who keeps RUNNING AWAY from John 1:1, 20:28, Acts 20:28, Rom. 9:5, Phil. 2:5-6, Col. 2:9, Tit. 2:13, Heb. 1:8, 2 Pet. 1:1, etc. etc., which I have brought up from the BEGINNING, and you keep RUNNING AWAY from.
I am not running away from these verses, but I have attempted to consider two of the passages on your original list. I cannot accept your responses on these two, including your response on "I am" and "I am he" in your next post.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

I am not running away from these verses, but I have attempted to consider two of the passages on your original list. I cannot accept your responses on these two,

Sorry, but that's not my problem.
You are not the supreme authority through which we determine truth.
Get over yourself.
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
You are not the supreme authority through which we determine truth.
I am not claiming to be any authority, but I am stating what I believe and my understanding has been developed over many years. I recommend a careful consideration of these various passages, rather than what I consider to be shallow reasoning in support of the Trinity. My present understanding of Exodus 3:14, John 8:58, John 10:30-36 are to me a solid foundation for my belief in the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God. I also suggest that a correct understanding of these passages is a strong help in understanding the overall subject.

I was introduced to the subject of the Yahweh Name on a Young Peoples' weekend in the NSW Southern Highlands nearly 60 years ago when I was 19 years old, and this subject has in a sense become a first love, as well as the fact that I started to court my future wife on that weekend. The Youth Leader who conducted the studies also occasionally encouraged me on a personal basis with some more information and discussion on this subject. Rather than having any doubts about the "I will be" view, this has been continually reinforced and expanded. As far as John 8:58 is concerned, a proper comparison with John 4:26, John 8:24, John 8:28 and John 9:9 helps. Also I consider that a careful consideration of the immediate context of John 8:58 would help in understanding this verse. One step in understanding this is to discover when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced. Their question was a deliberate muddying of the waters:
John 8:56–58 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [
I do not agree that Jesus is saying, yes I am older than Abraham and I am also Yahweh Himself, the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. I believe that "I am he" is part of the theme that Jesus is the Christ. He was before Abraham in the plan and purpose of God Genesis 3:15, Psalm 8:4-6.

My interest and involvement with John 10:30 occurred when I was attending a SDA seminar series on Daniel. I was interested in Daniel and thought I could learn some aspects from this series. In some respects SDAs are closer to my beliefs than many Baptists, but SDAs share the concept of the earth being burned with some Baptists, while I agree with the 1000 years concept with the SDAs, but that the 1000 year reign of Christ will be upon the earth from Jerusalem. As such we differed on Daniel 2:35,44. I do not agree with Baptists that the immortal souls of the faithful go to heaven at death. One Friday night when a reasonable number were away, they decided to change the subject to the Trinity, and one of the main quotations was John 10:30. There was a general murmur of consent to this verse as teaching the Trinity, but I stated that I believe that Jesus is not God the Son, but the Son of God.

It was a few years later that a thread occurred on CARM titled something like "I said, ye are gods". As a result of this thread my understanding of John 10:30-36 was developed and this helped me to understand the use of the word "Elohim" in the OT, and the outcome of all of this is a reinforcing of my belief that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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This is why "discussion" with you is a colossal waste of time.

I recommend a careful consideration of these various passages, rather than what I consider to be shallow reasoning in support of the Trinity.

You have nothing but contempt and disrespect for anyone who disagrees with you.
You think you're the only one on Earth who has invested "careful consideration".
Kindly get over yourself.

My present understanding of Exodus 3:14, John 8:58, John 10:30-36 are to me a solid foundation for my belief in the One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God. I also suggest that a correct understanding of these passages is a strong help in understanding the overall subject.

I completely agree that a correct understanding of those passages is a strong help in understanding the overall subject.

That's why I'm a Trinitarian.

As far as John 8:58 is concerned, a proper comparison with John 4:26, John 8:24, John 8:28 and John 9:9 helps.

And we've already see, you do NOT have "a proper" understanding of those passages.
Your understanding is biased, and based on an anti-Trinitarian hatred.
Further still, you're trying to make arguments bsaed on the Greek while remaining 100% ignorant of the Greek.

Also I consider that a careful consideration of the immediate context of John 8:58 would help in understanding this verse. One step in understanding this is to discover when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced. Their question was a deliberate muddying of the waters:
John 8:56–58 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [
I do not agree that Jesus is saying, yes I am older than Abraham and I am also Yahweh Himself, the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. I believe that "I am he" is part of the theme that Jesus is the Christ. He was before Abraham in the plan and purpose of God Genesis 3:15, Psalm 8:4-6.

Then you don't understand John 8:58.

It was a few years later that a thread occurred on CARM titled something like "I said, ye are gods". As a result of this thread my understanding of John 10:30-36 was developed and this helped me to understand the use of the word "Elohim" in the OT, and the outcome of all of this is a reinforcing of my belief that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son.

And of course, you insultingly and comtemptuously believe NOBODY else has ever studied the use of the word "elohim".
Get over yourself.

Meanwhile, you CONTINUE to RUN AWAY from the Bible passages which teach Jesus is God, all the while falsely accusing me of "running away" from irrelevant passages.

Any "discussion" with you is a colossal waste of time.
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
Meanwhile, you CONTINUE to RUN AWAY from the Bible passages which teach Jesus is God
I am not running away from John 8:58 and John 10:30-36, but I consider that you have not properly or sufficiently dealt with these. Perhaps you could answer:
when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced?
Also concerning John 10:30-36, what is the full significance in Jesus quoting Psalm 82:6 as an answer to the false accusation of the Jews?

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

I am not running away from John 8:58 and John 10:30-36,

<sigh>

You've run away from:
Isa. 9:6
John 1:1,14
John 20:28
Acts 20:28
Rom. 9:5
Phil. 2:5-6
Col. 2:9
Tit. 2:13
Heb. 1:8
2 Pet. 1:1

but I consider that you have not properly or sufficiently dealt with these.

That falls under the category of, "not my problem".

Especially since you keep RUNNING AWAY from:
Isa. 9:6
John 1:1,14
John 20:28
Acts 20:28
Rom. 9:5
Phil. 2:5-6
Col. 2:9
Tit. 2:13
Heb. 1:8
2 Pet. 1:1

Also concerning John 10:30-36, what is the full significance in Jesus quoting Psalm 82:6 as an answer to the false accusation of the Jews?

Already asked and answered.
But since it refutes your false theology, you refuse to accept the answer.

In the meantime, you keep RUNNING AWAY from:
Isa. 9:6
John 1:1,14
John 20:28
Acts 20:28
Rom. 9:5
Phil. 2:5-6
Col. 2:9
Tit. 2:13
Heb. 1:8
2 Pet. 1:1
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

Your style and method remind me of RMB Jnr who used to be active on a few forums. Perhaps you could answer when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced John 8:56? If you answer this I will move on to two other passages in your list, but I will initially give only a brief answer now and I am fairly sure you will not accept my answer.
You've run away from: John 1:1,14 John 20:28
The WORD in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the wise woman WISDOM in Proverbs 8. John 1:14 describes the development of this Word, and this includes the begettal and birth of Jesus Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, and then his growth and development of character Luke 2:40,52 until his ministry when his moral glory was revealed, he was "full of grace and truth". Jesus did not have two minds.

Concerning John 20:28 Jesus is both David's and our Lord Psalm 110:1. Psalm 82:6 gives an indication of the use of the word "God". John 20:30-31 gives a summary of the role and status of Jesus, he is the Christ, the Son of God. The title and status of Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of God" is greater than the title "God" as this title is also given to Judges and Angels, who represent the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, but Jesus in his role as "God" or "Elohim" is greater than the Judges and Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Your style and method remind me of RMB Jnr who used to be active on a few forums.

Your style and method remind me of atheists I used to interact with back in the BBS days. They would simply throw spaghetti at the wall, keep posting "proof-texts" for me to answer, and no matter how many I answered, they simply ignored my answers, and threw more at me. In the meantime, they would NEVER address my passages, their "control" was their way of avoiding actual discussion.

A complete waste of time, just like you're a compete waste of time.

Perhaps you could answer when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced John 8:56?

I already have.
There's really nothing to answer.

And besides, "asking questions" is not a valid argument. If you want to try to make an ACTUAL argument regarding John 8:56 (which includes indicate statements, premises, and conclusions), you are perfectly free to do so, and I may accept your argument, or I may reject your argument.

But asking "questions" is a complete waste of my time, as it accomplishes nothing.

If you answer this I will move on to two other passages in your list, but I will initially give only a brief answer now and I am fairly sure you will not accept my answer.

Yeah, and the cheque is the the mail, right?
Sorry, that's not how it works.
I'm not a fool.

You keep trying to string me along, "Just answer this and I'll address your passages". "Okay, now just address THIS and I'll get around to addressing your passages."

No, I provided my passages MANY posts ago, and you keep making excuses to delay and dodge actually addressing them. Because you CAN'T.

So as far as I'm concerned, I've won the debate.
I'm not going to continue to play your stupid games, while you continue to RUN AWAY from the passages which clearly show your view false.

The WORD in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the wise woman WISDOM in Proverbs 8. John 1:14 describes the development of this Word, and this includes the begettal and birth of Jesus Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, and then his growth and development of character Luke 2:40,52 until his ministry when his moral glory was revealed, he was "full of grace and truth". Jesus did not have two minds.

Blah blah.
That's a lot of worthless rhetoric that AVOIDS the actual text:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Concerning John 20:28 Jesus is both David's and our Lord Psalm 110:1.

Please do not run away to Psalm 110:1.
Stay in John 20:28.

Psalm 82:6 gives an indication of the use of the word "God".

Please do not run away to Ps. 82:6.
Stay in John 20:28.

John 20:30-31 gives a summary of the role and status of Jesus, he is the Christ, the Son of God.

So once again, you SKIPPED OVER the actual issue:

John 10:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Thomas called Jesus, "God".
Not merely, "son of God".
Thomas called him, "GOD".

And running away to the (irrelevant) Ps. 82:6 to try to argue, "Well, 'god' doesn't REALLY mean 'god' " is arbitrary and self-serving. If it doesn't actually mean "God" when referring to Jesus, then it doesn't actually mean God when it is referring to the Fatherr.

Otherwise you're simply cherry-picking.

The title and status of Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of God" is greater than the title "God" as this title is also given to Judges and Angels, who represent the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, but Jesus in his role as "God" or "Elohim" is greater than the Judges and Angels.

So you're saying that Jesus is greater than the Father?

Sorry, but your eisegesis is biased and arbitrary.
You have ALREADY a priori decided that Jesus CAN'T be YHWH/theos, and so any passage that asserts that He is, you automatically reject it, and immediately look for a reason to try to explain it away.

You're not interested in God's truth.
You're only interested in defending your false theology.

And that's why "discussion" with you is a colossal waste of time.
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

Seeing you are now online, and I have about 20 minutes to spare this morning here in Australia before I need to get going, perhaps you could tell me the post where you have previously explained or answered my question: "Perhaps you could answer when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced John 8:56?". If not I may be available in 8 hours time. Your response in your last post is:
I already have. There's really nothing to answer.
I consider that Jesus statement is very relevant to understanding John 8:58 and whether we are compelled or best to understand this verse as "I am he", the same as John 4:26, John 8:24 and John 8:28.
So as far as I'm concerned, I've won the debate.
I'm not going to continue to play your stupid games, while you continue to RUN AWAY from the passages which clearly show your view false.
I will let you win the debate and you seem to be using every debate tactic in your quiver. I have discussed two of your passages, and I have briefly commenced two more, but I would like you and others to consider verse 56. Also, I suggest that you have not properly explained the use of Psalm 82:6 in the answer that Jesus gave to the false accusation of the Jews in John 10:30-36. If you score your own debate, then definitely you have won. I will present you with your ribbon or trophy when you answer my question or mention the post where you "already have" answered.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
answered my question: "Perhaps you could answer when and where did Abraham see Jesus' day and as a result he rejoiced John 8:56?". If not I may be available in 8 hours time. Your response in your last post is:

I see nothing in John 8:56 which changes the meaning of John 8:58.

I consider that Jesus statement is very relevant to understanding John 8:58 and whether we are compelled or best to understand this verse as "I am he", the same as John 4:26, John 8:24 and John 8:28.

I have already addressed this. Your ignorance of the Greek is why you think these passages are the least bit relevant to John 8:58.

If you are going to try to pass yourself off as some "expert" in Koine Greek, to be more knowledgeable than just about ALL Greek scholars on the face of the Earth, you're going to have to provide some credentials in Koine Greek to convince us that your opinion is worth more than a smelly pile of cow dung.

I will let you win the debate and you seem to be using every debate tactic in your quiver.

Thank you for the personal attack.
You will have to answer to My God for that.

I have discussed two of your passages, and I have briefly commenced two more,

Why do you keep RUNNING AWAY from the rest of them?

but I would like you and others to consider verse 56.

<sigh>
You really need to lose the condescending and insulting attitude.
I HAVE "considered" it. Why do you assume that anyone who dares disagree with you is some ignorant moron?

If YOU think v. 56 changes the text of v. 58, YOU are free to provide a compelling and sound argument. But that is YOUR job, not mine.

Also, I suggest that you have not properly explained the use of Psalm 82:6 in the answer that Jesus gave to the false accusation of the Jews in John 10:30-36.

Yes, you consider anyone who disagrees with you to be an ignorant moron.
But I don't really care what you think.

The Scriptures are VERY clear that Jesus is God, and I will NEVER deny Scripture, and if you don't accept that, I couldn't care less. That's your problem, not mine.
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
I see nothing in John 8:56 which changes the meaning of John 8:58.
I have already addressed this. Your ignorance of the Greek is why you think these passages are the least bit relevant to John 8:58.
If you are going to try to pass yourself off as some "expert" in Koine Greek, to be more knowledgeable than just about ALL Greek scholars on the face of the Earth, you're going to have to provide some credentials in Koine Greek to convince us that your opinion is worth more than a smelly pile of cow dung.
I have included both parts of your response into one as I consider that they are connected. Firstly your insistence that a thorough knowledge of Koine Greek is necessary to understand the words of Jesus and his teaching. Yes, scholarship is important, but the understanding of what Jesus teaches is often received by Jesus' faithful disciples, rather than the learned of His Age and today. The context uses "I am he" in both John 8:24,28 even though you may claim only "I am" for John 8:24. WITHOUT a knowledge of Koine Greek, I suggest that a wrong perspective of what Jesus was stating in John 8:56 affects how various scholars have translated John 8:58. I believe that Jesus was not speaking about being in existence before Abraham, and in English this would be clearer by saying "I was existing before Abraham existed", nor is he saying "Before Abraham existed, I existed as the "I AM", YHWH, and in the form of the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son".

There is a larger context, not only the theme of the whole Gospel of John, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31, but also what occurred in John chapters 7 and 8. One interesting part of this is the following:
John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?
I suggest the same concepts and language are echoed in the two passages previously mentioned:
John 8:24, 28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
There is more context, as in John 7 they had tried to arrest Jesus, in John 8:1-11 they had tried to entrap him, and in John 8:28 above he had spoken about his impending crucifixion at their hands, and then in John 8:31-57 there is extensive discussion concerning Abraham, and especially as to who are the true seed of Abraham.

In the context of Jesus being the true seed of Abraham, the beloved son, the Son of man, the one whom the nation would lift up in crucifixion, Jesus states the following:
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
I suggest that the way Abraham saw the day of Jesus was an accumulation of his faith concerning the Seed, Abraham forsawe in faith the raising up of his descendant, his ministry and teaching, but it became highlighted by the enacted parable of Genesis 22. Abraham foresaw the need for the sacrifice of Jesus as the true burnt offering, and his death and resulting resurrection. As a result of these events, foreshadowed by the enacted parable of the Offering of Isaac Abraham rejoiced.
Genesis 22:7–14 (KJV): 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: (mg YHWH will see or provide) as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

As a result of all of the above my understanding of John 8:58 is
John 8:58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

I had hoped to add some further comments on the other three passages John 10:30-36, John 1:1,14, and John 20:28 but have spent enough time already.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

I have included both parts of your response into one as I consider that they are connected. Firstly your insistence that a thorough knowledge of Koine Greek is necessary to understand the words of Jesus and his teaching. Yes, scholarship is important, but the understanding of what Jesus teaches is often received by Jesus' faithful disciples, rather than the learned of His Age and today. The context uses "I am he" in both John 8:24,28 even though you may claim only "I am" for John 8:24. WITHOUT a knowledge of Koine Greek, I suggest that a wrong perspective of what Jesus was stating in John 8:56 affects how various scholars have translated John 8:58. I believe that Jesus was not speaking about being in existence before Abraham, and in English this would be clearer by saying "I was existing before Abraham existed", nor is he saying "Before Abraham existed, I existed as the "I AM", YHWH, and in the form of the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son".

There is a larger context, not only the theme of the whole Gospel of John, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God John 20:30-31, but also what occurred in John chapters 7 and 8. One interesting part of this is the following:
John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?
I suggest the same concepts and language are echoed in the two passages previously mentioned:
John 8:24, 28 (KJV): 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
There is more context, as John 7 they had tried to arrest Jesus, in John 8:1-11 they had tried to entrap him, and in John 8:28 above he had spoken about his impending crucifixion at their hands, and then in John 8:31-57 there is extensive discussion concerning Abraham, and especially as to who are the true seed of Abraham.

In the context of Jesus being the true seed of Abraham, the beloved son, the Son of man, the one whom the nation would lift up in crucifixion, Jesus states the following:
John 8:56 (KJV): Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
I suggest that the way Abraham saw the day of Jesus was an accumulation of his faith concerning the Seed, Abraham forsawe in faith the raising up of his descendant, his ministry and teaching, but it became highlighted by the enacted parable of Genesis 22. Abraham foresaw the need for the sacrifice of Jesus as the true burnt offering, and his death and resulting resurrection. As a result of these events, foreshadowed by the enacted parable of the Offering of Isaac Abraham rejoiced.
Genesis 22:7–14 (KJV): 7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: (mg YHWH will see or provide) as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

As a result of all of the above my understanding of John 8:58 is
John 8:58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

I had hoped to add some further comments on the other three passages John 10:30-36, John 1:1,14, and John 20:28 but have spent enough time already.

Kind regards
Trevor

You are simply repeating yourself, and I have already addressed John 4 and John 8.
Further, you proclaim yourself smarter than 98% of Greek scholars on the face of the Earth, and arrrogantly assume you understand the Greek better than they do.

Lastly, you CONTINUE to ignore all the other passages which proclaim the deity of Jesus.

You are a colossal waste of time.
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
You are simply repeating yourself, and I have already addressed John 4 and John 8.
I have attempted in my latest post that there is a consistent teaching and theme which helps to better understand John 8:58.
Further, you proclaim yourself smarter than 98% of Greek scholars on the face of the Earth, and arrrogantly assume you understand the Greek better than they do.
No, I am suggesting that a correct translation of John 8:58 does not hang only on Koine Greek, but a correct understanding of the context and the teaching of Jesus.
Lastly, you CONTINUE to ignore all the other passages which proclaim the deity of Jesus.
No, I have started to consider three other passages in your list, but I had hoped to deal with more detail concerning John 10:30-36 and a few more brief comments on John 1:1,14 and John 20:28.
You are a colossal waste of time.
I have spent too much time on this thread and will have a rest.

You agreed that Psalm 82 is about the unjust judges, and I am encouraged by this as many disagree that Psalm 82 is speaking about the Judges in Israel. I will add what I prepared concerning this without additional comment.

The Role and Responsibility of the Judges
It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor's goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbour.


The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.

So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.
John 10:30,36: 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He was united with His Father in character and works.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

I have attempted in my latest post that there is a consistent teaching and theme which helps to better understand John 8:58.

You have failed miserably.

No, I am suggesting that a correct translation of John 8:58 does not hang only on Koine Greek, but a correct understanding of the context and the teaching of Jesus.

So how do you correctly and accurately translate from Koine Greek to English while being completely ignorant of Koine Greek?

What a colossal waste of time...

No, I have started to consider three other passages in your list, but I had hoped to deal with more detail concerning John 10:30-36 and a few more brief comments on John 1:1,14 and John 20:28.

I have already addressed those passages, and you have simply IGNORED my response.
Why should I waste my time with you, when you only ignore my responses?

You have YET to offer ANY argument that is compelling.
And you continue to IGNORE and RUN AWAY from many passages which teach the deity of Christ.

So why should I consider your responses to be worth more than a smelly pile of cow dung?

I have spent too much time on this thread and will have a rest.

When you post worthless rhetoric, that is always the case.

The Role and Responsibility of the Judges
It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):

What evidence do you have for your worthless opinion?

Exodus 21:6 (KJV): Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor's goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbour.


The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.

So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. A careful consideration of verses 30 and 36 show that Jesus is not claiming to be God, but the Son of God.
John 10:30,36: 30 I and my Father are one. 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
He was united with His Father in character and works.

Kind regards
Trevor

Your worthless response is completely uncompelling.

And as long as you continue to IGNORE and RUN AWAY from all the other passages which explicitly teach the deity of Christ, you demonstrate your theology to be worthless.
 
Greetings again Theo1689,

Perhaps you could explain how your supposed years of studying Koine Greek. and supposed years of studying Hebrew actually gives a definitive answer to the two passages that I mentioned. We have covered some of this on another thread, and your wrong claim based on your "Koine Greek knowledge" and avoidance of John 4:26, John 8:24,28 and John 9:9, and perhaps you may like to answer the question that I addressed to johnny guitar on John 8:56, either here or on that thread.

Again a claim to great knowledge, but in addition to Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins, there is AB Davidson in his article in Hastings Bible Dictionary. I also have other resources that support the future tense for "Ehyeh" in Exodus 3:12,14. Refer also Exodus 6:1-8.

Kind regards
Trevor
FYI the ORIGINAL NT scriptures were written in Greek! Thus knowing the Greek language is very Powerful in getting the Correct Translation into our English language! The ORIGINAL OT was written Mostly in Hebrew and some in Aramaic! Thus know the Hebrew language is very Powerful in getting the Correct Translation into our English language! Now do you understand what Theo1689 is correctly telling you?!!!!
 
Greetings rod.ney,
FYI the ORIGINAL NT scriptures were written in Greek! Thus knowing the Greek language is very Powerful in getting the Correct Translation into our English language!
Yes, but do you personally and does Theo1689 have sufficient knowledge of Koine Greek, not just Greek as he likes to insist, to demand that John 8:58 must be translated as "I AM", rather than "I am he" especially as the same Greek words are translated as "I am he" in John 4:26, 8:24, 8:28 and John 9:9. I have seen one translation that has "I am he" for John 8:58, but I will not endorse this particular Bible as I do not know how scholarly are the translators.
The ORIGINAL OT was written Mostly in Hebrew and some in Aramaic! Thus know the Hebrew language is very Powerful in getting the Correct Translation into our English language!
Yes, and I have only mentioned that I prefer the translation "I wilbe" Tyndale (I like the spelling as well), and "I will be" RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson and other scholars, rather than "I AM" for Exodus 3:12, 14. Have you considered this translation and also Exodus 6:1-8? Do you have sufficient Hebrew scholarship to refute these authorities?
Now do you understand what Theo1689 is correctly telling you?!!!!
I doubt that he is correct on his explanation of John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14, as I assume he is hiding behind waving a "Koine Greek" flag and has shown little indication of his Hebrew understanding, and I suspect that on these two passages he is not very proficient in his language "expertise".

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings rod.ney,

Yes, but do you personally and does Theo1689 have sufficient knowledge of Koine Greek, not just Greek as he likes to insist, to demand that John 8:58 must be translated as "I AM", rather than "I am he" especially as the same Greek words are translated as "I am he" in John 4:26, 8:24, 8:28 and John 9:9. I have seen one translation that has "I am he" for John 8:58, but I will not endorse this particular Bible as I do not know how scholarly are the translators.

Yes, and I have only mentioned that I prefer the translation "I wilbe" Tyndale (I like the spelling as well), and "I will be" RV and RSV margins and AB Davidson and other scholars, rather than "I AM" for Exodus 3:12, 14. Have you considered this translation and also Exodus 6:1-8? Do you have sufficient Hebrew scholarship to refute these authorities?

I doubt that he is correct on his explanation of John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14, as I assume he is hiding behind waving a "Koine Greek" flag and has shown little indication of his Hebrew understanding, and I suspect that on these two passages he is not very proficient in his language "expertise".

Kind regards
Trevor
So in this Greek to English Bible do you see " I AM " or " I AM He " ?!!!! ------------------------------

John 8:58

Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament

58 JesusIēsous saidlegō to themautos, “I telllegō youhymeis the solemnamēn truthamēn, beforeprin AbrahamAbraam cameginomai to be, Iegō ameimi!”


 
Greetings rod.ney,
So in this Greek to English Bible do you see " I AM " or " I AM He " ?
Relevance? Most English translations have "I AM" or "I am". How do you understand this if you only accept "I AM"?
1. Jesus is saying that he exists.
2. Jesus is claiming to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14? (that is YHWH).

Or is Jesus claiming to be the Christ?

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Theo1689,
And you continue to IGNORE and RUN AWAY from many passages which teach the deity of Christ.
Although you have "finished" with John 1:1,14, one of the passages that I like to introduce the language of John 1:1, 14 is the following:
Isaiah 55:8–11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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