stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Judging the morals of the Author of all morality would be as foolish as judging the wetness of a fountain from whence all rivers flow.
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Judging the morals of the Author of all morality would be as foolish as judging the wetness of a fountain from whence all rivers flow.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
Then "my god is good" has no meaning; goodness is judged against something.
If there were only one writer of novels in the world, "The Novelist is the perfect writer" is a completely worthless statement - who is he better than, exactly?
treeplanter
Well-known member
And the very idea of comparing and contrasting God's morality with that of the average human being terrifies stiggy because he knows that God's character will emerge as the demonstrably lesser of the two
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Means a great deal to me.
Correct. Against me.
Exactly. God is infinitely better than I.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Hardly. Fruitless tasks don't scare me none. There is no average human being.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
You judge both yourself and your god against a common standard, and your god comes out better.
What is that standard?
By what standard?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Complete unconditional love.
treeplanter
Well-known member
God's love is NOT unconditional, stiggy
It is conditioned upon:
1. Genuine repentance of sin
2. Removal of ultimate trust from self to Christ
treeplanter
Well-known member
You said that you value God because of His love
What reason do you have to value human beings?
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
So as long as somebody loves you, they can do no wrong?
CrowCross
Super Member
I showed your concerns...are not concerns at all.
The vast majority of Christians do not believe in genuine repentance.A genuine repentance of sin, would entail ceasing to commit sin.
The vast majority of Christians do not trust Jesus. They don't believe the words Jesus spoke while He preached His gospel, much less trust them. The words they believe and trust are from those other than Jesus such as Paul and followers of Paul. Most don't even know the half of what Jesus had to say.
John 14
23...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Only those who KEEP Jesus' word love Jesus. Only those who keep Jesus' word will His Father love. Only those who keep HIS word will have Jesus and His Father make Their abode with them.
The vast majority do not even believe that it's possible to KEEP Jesus' word, much less actually KEEP them.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
Not being a Christian, I am loath to correct this, but I must.
Repentance is not about ceasing to sin; it's about trying to cease to sin, and being genuinely regretful when you fail (because you will).
This I do agree with, to the point where I think Christianity should be called Paulianity.
Jesus is talking about the only way provided by the Father to come to Him and that is by coming to the Son.
There are wayward believers that seem to think the Holy Spirit is another way to come to the father by in worship, but He is not; only the Son by honoring the Son is how any believer can honor the father per John 5:22-23 & John 13:32-33 & Philippians 2:5-11..
There are unbelievers that think they can come to God other than by believing in Jesus Christ, and there isn't because that wuld lead to a lot of stuck up religious people & still carnal people in Heaven and there cannot be any peace of God in that.
1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Jesus is even warning believers that if they climb up another way like by way of the Holy Spirit in coming to God the father, then that saved believer is behaving like a thief per John 10:1
There is nothing in between us and Jesus when Jesus is the only way to the Father. There will be a falling away from the faith ( 1 timothy 4:1-2 & 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ) because of the focus on the holy Spirit in worship, giving heed to visiting spirits as if that is the Holy Spirit when they are not, but the spirt of the antichrist when the real indwelling Holy Spirit is in us to keep the spotlight on the son in worship to glorify God the Father by. They broaden the way in the worship place ( Matthew 7:13-14 ) where it is ecumenical in nature ( Matthew 7:15-20 ) bringing signs & wonders ( Matthew 21-23 ), causing believers to lose self control & fall ( Matthew 7L24-27 ) like in slain in the spirit phenomenon and holy laughter movement of seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues when God will permit that strong delusion to occur for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation ( 2 Corinthians 11:3-4; 13:5 & 2 Thessalonians 2:9-15
The invitation is given to all people but not all people will heed that invitation to be saved, not even saved believers that go astray whom are at risk of being left behind when the Bridegroom comes but they are still saved because when they die, they will be with the Lord in Heaven in spirits, awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation.
Jesus is emphasizing how to come to God the Father by and that is by Him alone; not only for salvation, but to avoid being led astray by the spirits of the antichrist. so saved believers will not get left behind when the Bridegroom comes per Luke 13:24-30.
treeplanter
Well-known member
No, you didn't, Crow
All you did was to deny that God has consciously and purposefully inflicted needless harm upon us
Read Post # 74
Looks like a loving God to me making sure Heaven is peaceful and good and to prevent saved believers from going astray down here too.
Jesus is called the Bridegroom for a reason. By knowing Jesus, we can know the Father. So learn about Jesus Christ today.
CrowCross
Super Member
You keep making that statement...but so far haven't shown why.
I typed you up a scenario....and you seemed to skip over the meat of it.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Nope. Zero conditions.
Those aren't conditions for love. They are manifestations. His love produces repentance and trust..
You sound like someone who has been influenced by the typical Christian conception of repentance.
Following is an explanation of the standard of repentance in Judaism:
Teshuva (Repentance)
Teshuvá is the key concept in the rabbinic view of sin, repentance, and forgiveness. The tradition is not of one mind on the steps one must take to repent of one's sins. However, almost all agree that repentance requires five elements: recognition of one's sins as sins (hakarát ha-chét'), remorse (charatá), desisting from sin (azivát ha-chét'), restitution where possible (peira'ón), and confession (vidúi).
"Recognition of one's sins as sins" is an act of one's intelligence and moral conscience. It involves knowing that certain actions are sinful, recognizing such actions in oneself as more than just lapses of praxis, and analyzing one's motives for sin as deeply as one can. For example, stealing from someone must be seen not only as a crime but also as a sin against another human and a violation of God's demands of us within the covenant. It also involves realizing that such acts are part of deeper patterns of relatedness and that they are motivated by some of the most profound and darkest elements in our being.
"Remorse" is a feeling. It is composed of feelings of regret, of failure to maintain one's moral standards. It may also encompass feelings of being lost or trapped, of anguish, and perhaps of despair at our own sinfulness, as well as a feeling of being alienated from God and from our own deepest spiritual roots, of having abandoned our own inner selves.
"Desisting from sin" is neither a moral-intellectual analysis nor a feeling; it is an action. It is a ceasing from sin, a desisting from the patterns of sinful action to which we have become addicted. Desisting from sin involves actually stopping the sinful action, consciously repressing thoughts and fantasies about the sinful activity, and making a firm commitment never to commit the sinful act again.
"Restitution" is the act of making good, as best one can, for any damage done. If one has stolen, one must return the object or pay compensation. If one has damaged another's reputation, one must attempt to correct the injury to the offended party.
"Confession" has two forms: the ritual and the personal. Ritual confession requires the recitation of the liturgies of confession at their proper moments in the prayer life of the community. Personal confession requires individual confession before God as needed or inserting one's personal confession into the liturgy at the designated moments. The more specific the personal confession, the better.
A person who follows these steps to teshuva is called a "penitent" (chozér be-teshuvá).
The tradition is quite clear, however, that recognition of sin, remorse, restitution, and confession, if they are done without desisting from sin, do not constitute teshuva. Without ceasing one's sinful activity, one has only arrived at the "preliminaries to teshuva" (hirhuréi teshuvá). Actual desisting from sin is what counts.
Pasted from <http://www.js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/Repentance.html>
What you define as "repentance" is the typical Christian conception of repentance. As I said, they do not believe in genuine repentance.
To understand genuine repentance, let's start with Ezekiel who was one of the late OT prophets. Following is the standard for repentance set by God according to Ezekiel.
Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live...
24“But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die...
30“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Clearly the standard for repentance set by God is that the individual no longer commits sin. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".
The gospel preached by Jesus is consistent with this standard of repentance. Those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live". Those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".
Yet the vast majority of Christians seem to have a lower standard for repentance. Some seem to have a much lower standard for repentance.
And because Christianity is Paulianity, the standard for repentance is what is consistent with Paulianity. Not what is consistent with the gospel preached by Jesus.