H
HouOz
Guest
How did that work for Jimmy Swaggert?
Are all Christians sinless?
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Are all Christians sinless?
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Why? Do YOU talk to yourself with facts? I don't.
CrowCross
Super Member
If you say so.
Whateverman
Well-known member
He does. Glad you agree.
Just because the Lord provided His warnings and His words to keep saved believers from going astray, does not mean all Christians will heed His words and warnings in following Him.
Those who follow Him would be relying on Jesus to be their Good Shepherd rather than Jimmy Swaggert. If those conned by Jimmy Swaggert were following Jesus & His words, they would discern & reprove him for his errors by His words & the words of His disciples.
Sometimes blindness or a double minded state can be present for why prayers are needed. I shall send one up for him now.
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.
2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
If all Christians were sinless the moment they are saved, then why would Jesus give any warnings or His words for us to follow Him?
Why would He teach us to pray to the Father to forgive us of our debts or trespasses as we are to forgive others, & yet leaning on Him to lead us away from temptations & to deliver us from the evil one when the power in living the Christian life is from God for why we are to live by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd that He will help us to follow Him & abide in His words too. But not every saved believers are doing that. Living in the world can lead believers to set their relationship with God on the mantle of their homes or in church, but rarely carry it to the outside world. They allow the cares of this life to lose sight of Him and so they become unfruitful & their joy gone while reaping corruptions in resorting how the world runs in getting covetous gains, loving money more than God for security. Apparently, that had happened to even Jimmy Swaggert.
bigthinker
Well-known member
The problem is that while believers - the creators of God, want to be loved, they don't necessarily want to love.
bigthinker
Well-known member
The problem is that while believers - the creators of God, want to be loved, they don't necessarily want to love.
So the gate is narrow, just wide enough for themselves.
Actually, the warning is to Christians in Matthew 7:13-27 about false prophets coming in misleading many by broadening the way in the worship place ( Matthew 7:13-14 ) It is ecumenical in nature as a sign of the false prophets which the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. did in broadening the way in the worship place to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son when Jesus is the only way to come to God the Father by in worship John 14:6 and the only way to honor the Father is by only honoring the Son per John 5:22-23. To climb up another way is a work of iniquity; a robber & a thief ( John 10:1 )
So regardless of the signs and wonders in Matthew 7:21-23, losing self control in falling in these movement of the spirit which they seem to think that is the Holy Spirit falling on them when it is not, but the spirit of the antichrist is what Jesus was warning saved believers about ( Matthew 7:24-27 ). God permitted that strong delusion to occur for believing the lie ( 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ) that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation but the tradition taught of us is only one time we will receive the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth is at the calling of the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15. The damnation spoken of is being disqualified to attend the Marriage Supper in heaven when Jesus Christ appears as the Bridegroom, taking only those abiding in Him and His words in being received as vessels unto honor in His House whereas the damned but still saved believers will be left behind to die but will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
2 Timothy 2:10-13 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21 testify to former believers as still saved as He still abides in them, but carnal believers & heretics, and former believers are all called to go to Jesus Christ in prayer, asking for help to see the truth so they can believe in Him again and repent from iniquity with His help so they too can be ready for when the Bridegroom comes. All those who hope in the Lord shall not be put to shame.
So feel free to ask God the father to reveal His Son to you so you can believe in Him & be saved too. Then you can ask Jesus for help in trusting Him as your Good Shepherd to help you to understand His words in the KJV and to abide in Him as you trust Him to help you to lay aside every weight & sin daily in following Him.
If you put it off, and Jesus appears and after He left with the abiding bride of Christ, you will hear the everlasting gospel by that first angel before destruction comes on one third of the earth. may the Lord remind you then that all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Indeed, even those who believe in His name shall be saved if any one is mute out there or speechless when paralyzed with fear when destruction comes; see 2 Peter 3:3-18 & Luke 12:40-49 & Luke 17:26-37 & Luke 21:33-36
If you or anyone else wants to know the truth about Matthew 7:13-14 is applied to saved believers being warned about false prophets that they can be left behind, do a Bible study on all these scriptural references today. Those slain in the spirit & holy laughter movement & Toronto's Blessings, & Pensacola Outpouring & Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade & another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues is the warning Jesus warned believers about for why many will be left behind unless they repent before He appears as the Bridegroom.
treeplanter
Well-known member
Oh, so it is Satan who decides who does and does not get into Heaven...
And all this time, I thought it was God
Electric Skeptic
Well-known member
Perhaps God would do it if he were more powerful...but stiggy has stated that he does not believe in an omnipotent god.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
WRONG! Neither. It's you!
treeplanter
Well-known member
WRONG!
It's not my choice that, in order to avoid eternal damnation, one need repent even when one has done nothing wrong
{Believing in different gods, taking the Lord's name in vain, not keeping the Sabbath holy, failing to honor parents who deserve no such respect, committing adultery in an open marriage, coveting my neighbor's wife, coveting my neighbor's property, etc}
Nor is it my choice that, in order to avoid eternal damnation, one must remove ultimate trust from self to Christ
These requirements of salvation come from God
It is God who places conditions upon salvation
Not me
Not Satan
God!
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Nope. You and you alone are refusing God's rescue. You've been warned.
treeplanter
Well-known member
God's rescue comes with strings attached, stiggy
1. You must genuinely repent of sin
{even when the sin entails nothing immoral}
2. You must remove ultimate trust from self to Christ
{even when it is apparent that most every one of us knows better than He}
Not to mention that you must be willing to praise Him for a solution to a problem that He, Himself, unjustly saddled us with...
@stiggy wiggy & @treeplanter
Did you know that a former believer is still saved?
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
So not only a former believer would deny Him, there is another way a saved believer can deny Him; by their religious heretical works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Note the term "reprobate" as in disqualified from the race for the high prize of our calling; to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the rapture event when the Bridegroom comes. That is why we are to call every believer to go before that throne of grace for help, even former believers, to see the lies they are nt seeing as we are to pray for them too and not just for ourselves in being ready.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
See how a former believer and every believer becomes a vessel unto honor? By trusting the Lord Jesus Christ to help them see the truth to be found abiding in Him before He comes. Hebrews 12:1-2 ;1 Corinthians 9:24-27; & 2 Timothy 4:18
This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are reprobates & disqualified for they shall be left behind to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven, awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation. Revelation 2:18-25;Luke 12:40-49;John 15:1-8
Did you know that a former believer is still saved?
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
So not only a former believer would deny Him, there is another way a saved believer can deny Him; by their religious heretical works.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Note the term "reprobate" as in disqualified from the race for the high prize of our calling; to be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the rapture event when the Bridegroom comes. That is why we are to call every believer to go before that throne of grace for help, even former believers, to see the lies they are nt seeing as we are to pray for them too and not just for ourselves in being ready.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
See how a former believer and every believer becomes a vessel unto honor? By trusting the Lord Jesus Christ to help them see the truth to be found abiding in Him before He comes. Hebrews 12:1-2 ;1 Corinthians 9:24-27; & 2 Timothy 4:18
This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are reprobates & disqualified for they shall be left behind to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven, awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation. Revelation 2:18-25;Luke 12:40-49;John 15:1-8
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
No obligation. AND IF YOU ACT NOW, you'll receive this nifty rescue inner tube for drowning babies. Call 1-800-WAH WAAH.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
No such thing as a former believer.
This is referring to those who hear His voice that do not follow a stranger's voice. If you read John 10:1-16 you will see how believers can be led astray as warned in Matthew 7:13-27;Luke 13:24-30 for broadening the way in coming to God in Matthew 7:13-27 for why they fall in those signs & wonders movements like "slain in the spirit", holy laughter movement, Toronto's Blessings, Pensacola Outpouring, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, & even the other calling of another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues which never comes with interpretation & assumed in error to be for private use; hence the stranger's voice as believers fall in these phenomenon in seeking those signs. So the way to avoid that is to narrow the way back to the straight gate in worship, fellowship, and prayer as Jesus is the only way to come to God the Father in any of those things. By the indwelling Holy Spirit & scripture putting the spotlight & focus on the Son in coming to God the Father is how any saved believer can avoid the spirits of the antichrist.
So there is a prophesied falling away from the faith which is to happen first;
2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, ...........
2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
That is how you apply your reference because those saved believers did not remain with us but went out so that it may be manifested that they were not of the first fold that follow His voice but rather a stranger's voice per John 10:1-16.
Then explain 2 Timothy 2:11-13 & 2 Timothy 2:18-21.
2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
8 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
You cannot say they were not saved when we are with patience and meekness minister to them per chance that God may recover some from the snare of the devil.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Unless you can explain the scripture here away, those who have fallen away from the faith do not realize that they have been led astray while those who stop believing in Him are still saved also because He is faithful for He abides in them still for why we are to call them to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.. or else be left behind to die ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House. This is where the vessels unto honor comes from that are in His House as vessels of wood and earth as they will serve the King of kings from all over the world during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
Eightcrackers
Well-known member
The Bible contradicts itself.
Many, many times.
treeplanter
Well-known member
You agree that it is immoral to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others
The disconnect here is obviously an inability to acknowledge that God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon us
You agree that a NEEDFUL harm is an inflicted harm by which the greater good could not otherwise have been achieved
You agree that a NEEDLESS harm is an inflicted harm that is not required as part of the means by which to achieve the greater good
The disconnect here is obviously an inability to admit that God needlessly chose to save and resurrect babies by means of drowning them
Let me get this straight, stigs...
According to you, not only is God smart enough and powerful enough to create babies from scratch, but He's also smart enough and powerful enough to create and support an entire universe!
And yet somehow He's not smart enough to figure out how to save babies from a fallen world without first drowning them and He's not powerful enough to resurrect babies to a better world without drowning them in the process???
EXPLAIN!!!