CARM is not a great place to learn about natural theology.

[e v e 21]

I reason like that too.

Taking that idea one step further one may conclude that if there be an omniscient deity who intends blessedness for those like himself (presuming he is good), then he knows the “choices” we make, for bad or good, and predetermines that all “choices” will be a means to his end, that is, blessedness for those like himself.

It is himself manifest in those made in his image (“Know thyself”). Whereas, the bad in us is summed up in ignorance of himself before anything was made at all.

In a nutshell:
“And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.” (Romans 8:28)

the uncaring unfeeling unaffected smug greek ‘god.’

 

[e v e 21]

Given the fact that the Greek moral philosophers and Egyptian religion PRECEDED formal Christianity, I don’t know how they could have corrupted Christianity.

By the way, Baur’s book mentioned above goes into detail demonstrating that the moral and natural philosophers prepared the ground from which Christianity grew, so without them there might not have been a Christianity at all.

the snakes prepared the ground alright… to attempt that christianity would be subsumed by the greek explanations and context.

the satanic realm knew Christ was arriving and polluted every concept in advance, and established the classical education which was the education the church fathers received.

 

[Predestined]

Chuckle!! - shouldn't be a long wait. They never seem too interested in my 1931 Ford, though -

I'm a car nut and '32 Ford coupe is my favorite. I drove a '56 Ford F150 long-bed for a long time.

 

[e v e 21]

the greek mindset and christianity cannot be merged, as many try to do.

 

[Dizerner]

I'm only interested in learning about my cars extended warranty. I've done a search and I couldn't find much on it.

Oh well.

I guess I'll just have to wait for telemarketers to call me.

I feel you.

Here I am a prince in Nigeria sitting on all this cash.

Maybe someday someone will answer my emails.

 

[The Pixie]

I don't know which way to leap on this, so playing devils advocate can I ask, if God can see what choice we will make in the future, when it comes to it, is it possible to to choose differently?

Forget God seeing it. Just consider:

Is it possible to choose differently?

If the situation was exactly the same - that is, you in a parallel universe - would you make the same choices? Whenever I make a choice, I do so for a reason. So the parallel universe me would have the same reason to make the same choice. The alternative is to suppose my choices are random, which surely cannot be free will.

 

[Whatsisface]

Forget God seeing it. Just consider:

Is it possible to choose differently?

If the situation was exactly the same - that is, you in a parallel universe - would you make the same choices? Whenever I make a choice, I do so for a reason. So the parallel universe me would have the same reason to make the same choice. The alternative is to suppose my choices are random, which surely cannot be free will.

Ok. What if I made my choice based on the toss of a coin? Let's suppose God knew that the coin would land heads. When it came to it, Is it possible that the coin could land tails?

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Regardless of what you make of this argument - have you heard it before on CARM? Have you even heard Boethius' name before on CARM? (No you haven't. I checked using the search function.)

The search function can't read minds. It only sorts thru comments.

 

[SteveB]

I'm guessing some people here don't care much what the case for theism is. Some people probably do care, though, so I thought I would illustrate why CARM is not a great place to learn about natural theology. You can get some value from CARM, but you will not learn much natural theology here.

You've all probably heard of the purported contradiction between omniscience and free will. Basically, if God knows everything, he knows what our decisions will be, and that means we are not really free. This is taken to prove a contradiction within some versions of Christianity.

A Christian philosopher named Boethius attacked this in his Consolation of Philosophy. The response he gave was based on his concept of divine eternity, which he considered to be the possession all at once of endless life. We have our lives across a series of discrete moments. God, by contrast, has his life, which never ends, all at once. So God can know our decisions from eternity without impeaching our freedom.

Regardless of what you make of this argument - have you heard it before on CARM? Have you even heard Boethius' name before on CARM? (No you haven't. I checked using the search function.)

I am not that knowledgeable about natural theology myself, but even I know that Boethius on divine eternity is "baby's first natural theology." If this is not getting discussed here then the discussion is taking place at a very low level. But, you knew that!

Again, nobody has an obligation to study this stuff. Just do not think you are learning it when you're posting on CARM. That is all.

Thanks for reading.

I'd generally have to agree that this is not a place to learn natural theology.

Based on the description given of proofing a deity by nature, I'd say that it's already been proven.
Several years ago, multiple times.

Psalm 19, and Romans 1 deal with it rather simply.

Psa 19:1-4 WEB 1 The heavens declare the glory of God. The expanse shows his handiwork. 2 Day after day they pour out speech, and night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice has gone out through all the earth, their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,

Rom 1:19-22 WEB 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

There.

Natural theology is definitively proven.

 

[e v e 21]

the natural (here) is sin.

 

[SteveB]

the natural (here) is sin.

I'd say that the natural is what YHVH created by speaking it into existence.

Psa 33:6-9 WEB 6 By Yahweh’s word, the heavens were made: all their army by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap. He lays up the deeps in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear Yahweh. Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood firm.

We read in Romans 5 that through the sin of Adam, death entered the world.

Rom 5:12 WEB Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Death is the result of sin.

Something else that strikes me....

All creation groans because of sin.


Rom 8:16-28 WEB 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. 19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. 23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for that which he sees? 25 But if we hope for that which we don’t see, we wait for it with patience. 26 In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don’t know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can’t be uttered. 27 He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit’s mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.

 

[e v e 21]

I'd say that the natural is what YHVH created by speaking it into existence.

Psa 33:6-9 WEB 6 By Yahweh’s word, the heavens were made: all their army by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap. He lays up the deeps in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear Yahweh. Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood firm.

We read in Romans 5 that through the sin of Adam, death entered the world.

Rom 5:12 WEB Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Death is the result of sin.

Something else that strikes me....

All creation groans because of sin.


Rom 8:16-28 WEB 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. 19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of decay into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. 23 Not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in hope, but hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for that which he sees? 25 But if we hope for that which we don’t see, we wait for it with patience. 26 In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don’t know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can’t be uttered. 27 He who searches the hearts knows what is on the Spirit’s mind, because he makes intercession for the saints according to God. 28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose.

His Reality, you quoted, is not this current earth, that prophets tell will be Destroyed.

 

[Lucian]

We read in Romans 5 that through the sin of Adam, death entered the world.

Rom 5:12 WEB Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.

Death is the result of sin.

Interestingly, one can also translate 'wherefore all sinned', at least prima facie.

 

[SteveB]

Interestingly, one can also translate 'wherefore all sinned', at least prima facie.

Wherefore is an older usage of the phrase "because of this".....

All HAVE sinned.

Otherwise, there would be those who would live, and be alive still, after hundreds of years.

 

[Lucian]

Wherefore is an older usage of the phrase "because of this".....

Exactly: death passed to all men, as a result of which all sinned, versus death passed to all men, because all sinned, being the distinction.

 

[SteveB]

Exactly: death passed to all men, as a result of which all sinned, versus death passed to all men, because all sinned, being the distinction.

So, everyone sinned because they died?

Or they died because they sinned?

 

[Lucian]

So, everyone sinned because they died?

Or they died because they sinned?

Yes, that's roughly the distinction.

 

[SteveB]

Yes, that's roughly the distinction.

For Adam he sinned, and as a result, died because of his sin.

We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin--death, and we sin, therefore we die too.

The cross of Jesus makes it possible to believe in Jesus, who frees us from our sin. And those who believe in Jesus will never die. We will be ushered immediately into the presence of God upon our death.

 

[Lucian]

For Adam he sinned, and as a result, died because of his sin.

We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin--death, and we sin, therefore we die too.

The cross of Jesus makes it possible to believe in Jesus, who frees us from our sin. And those who believe in Jesus will never die. We will be ushered immediately into the presence of God upon our death.

That hangs together with the standard translation of this verse, yes.

 

[Lighthearted Atheist]

I'm guessing some people here don't care much what the case for theism is. Some people probably do care, though, so I thought I would illustrate why CARM is not a great place to learn about natural theology. You can get some value from CARM, but you will not learn much natural theology here.

You've all probably heard of the purported contradiction between omniscience and free will. Basically, if God knows everything, he knows what our decisions will be, and that means we are not really free. This is taken to prove a contradiction within some versions of Christianity.

A Christian philosopher named Boethius attacked this in his Consolation of Philosophy. The response he gave was based on his concept of divine eternity, which he considered to be the possession all at once of endless life. We have our lives across a series of discrete moments. God, by contrast, has his life, which never ends, all at once. So God can know our decisions from eternity without impeaching our freedom.

Regardless of what you make of this argument - have you heard it before on CARM? Have you even heard Boethius' name before on CARM? (No you haven't. I checked using the search function.)

I am not that knowledgeable about natural theology myself, but even I know that Boethius on divine eternity is "baby's first natural theology." If this is not getting discussed here then the discussion is taking place at a very low level. But, you knew that!

Again, nobody has an obligation to study this stuff. Just do not think you are learning it when you're posting on CARM. That is all.

Thanks for reading.

Sam Harris once said, "if you use The Bible as a guide to understand the natural world you will get everything wrong."

If you took a grade school science test with The Bible as your guide you'd get an F every time. You'd say the Earth formed before the stars, the Earth had water on it before the light of the sun, plants formed before basic sea life, etc.

I'd suggest a physics 101 book instead.