CARM's Questions for Christadelphians

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Jesus inherited the nature of Adam through Mary his mother.
We were, but do you know what happens when we are born again of the Spirit? Our nature changes. We partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:4. But Jesus was born with that nature that we get when we are born again. He is the firstborn of many brethren who are going to live for all eternity. Romans 8:29-30
Much of our sin nature persists after our conversion.

It doesn't have to. So why sin when you are equipped not to?

You may be more successful than my experience.

I have been born again for 45 years, so may have more practice walking in the Spirit.

Read Romans 6. It helped me when I read it from the Living Bible

6 Well then, shall we keep on sinning so that God can keep on showing us more and more kindness and forgiveness?

2-3 Of course not! Should we keep on sinning when we don’t have to? For sin’s power over us was broken when we became Christians and were baptized to become a part of Jesus Christ; through his death the power of your sinful nature was shattered. 4 Your old sin-loving nature was buried with him by baptism when he died; and when God the Father, with glorious power, brought him back to life again, you were given his wonderful new life to enjoy.

5 For you have become a part of him, and so you died with him, so to speak, when he died; and now you share his new life and shall rise as he did. 6 Your old evil desires were nailed to the cross with him; that part of you that loves to sin was crushed and fatally wounded, so that your sin-loving body is no longer under sin’s control, no longer needs to be a slave to sin; 7 for when you are deadened to sin you are freed from all its allure and its power over you. 8 And since your old sin-loving nature “died” with Christ, we know that you will share his new life. 9 Christ rose from the dead and will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 He died once for all to end sin’s power, but now he lives forever in unbroken fellowship with God. 11 So look upon your old sin nature as dead and unresponsive to sin, and instead be alive to God, alert to him, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Do not let sin control your puny body any longer; do not give in to its sinful desires. 13 Do not let any part of your bodies become tools of wickedness, to be used for sinning; but give yourselves completely to God—every part of you—for you are back from death and you want to be tools in the hands of God, to be used for his good purposes. 14 Sin need never again be your master, for now you are no longer tied to the law where sin enslaves you, but you are free under God’s favor and mercy.

15 Does this mean that now we can go ahead and sin and not worry about it? (For our salvation does not depend on keeping the law but on receiving God’s grace!) Of course not!

16 Don’t you realize that you can choose your own master? You can choose sin (with death) or else obedience (with acquittal). The one to whom you offer yourself—he will take you and be your master, and you will be his slave. 17 Thank God that though you once chose to be slaves of sin, now you have obeyed with all your heart the teaching to which God has committed you. 18 And now you are free from your old master, sin; and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.

19 I speak this way, using the illustration of slaves and masters, because it is easy to understand: just as you used to be slaves to all kinds of sin, so now you must let yourselves be slaves to all that is right and holy.

20 In those days when you were slaves of sin you didn’t bother much with goodness. 21 And what was the result? Evidently not good, since you are ashamed now even to think about those things you used to do, for all of them end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and are slaves of God, and his benefits to you include holiness and everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 

Stephen

Active member
The "sinful, fallen nature" is what Paul called "the old man." Romans 6:6-7. Jesus did not have that nature because He was conceived with the seed of the Father before He was even born. Likewise, we who are born again no longer have the sin nature because we have been crucified with Christ, and we are raised up according to His resurrection. Also, we who are born again of the Spirit Romans 8:9, do not have the old desire to sin because of the same seed of the Father. 1 John 3:9. Instead of a sin nature, we partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4, same as Jesus did. So we can come across temptations and yet not indulge.

While I agree with some of this, I don't think you aren't using the word "nature" as CARM meant the word when they wrote the question. This leads to confusion in how the response should be understood.

In regards to your comments aside from the word "nature", as Paul says, we are certainly to crucify the old man, but I suggest that this is an ongoing process in our lives rather than a one-time event. In Romans Paul is talking to the churches, churches that he found no fault in. He's not talking to new converts or prospects, he's talking to people who have been converted and walking in the faith admirably. He would have no need to write these things to them if he is writing about a one-time event as they would all have experienced it. Paul's lamentation at the end of Chapter 7 indicates he is still fighting the fight, he still suffers temptation, and as he enters Roman 8 he tells you that we should live one way and not the other. He's not talking about doing something easy (as he ends Romans 8 discussing suffering), he's talking about doing something that is hard.
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
While I agree with some of this, I don't think you aren't using the word "nature" as CARM meant the word when they wrote the question. This leads to confusion in how the response should be understood.

In regards to your comments aside from the word "nature", as Paul says, we are certainly to crucify the old man, but I suggest that this is an ongoing process in our lives rather than a one-time event. In Romans Paul is talking to the churches, churches that he found no fault in. He's not talking to new converts or prospects, he's talking to people who have been converted and walking in the faith admirably. He would have no need to write these things to them if he is writing about a one-time event as they would all have experienced it. Paul's lamentation at the end of Chapter 7 indicates he is still fighting the fight, he still suffers temptation, and as he enters Roman 8 he tells you that we should live one way and not the other. He's not talking about doing something easy (as he ends Romans 8 discussing suffering), he's talking about doing something that is hard.

Maybe I'm not even suppose to be answering the question. I'll leave this post alone.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again CharismaticLady,
Maybe I'm not even suppose to be answering the question. I'll leave this post alone.
We welcome your discussion and you are free to answer our perspective. The purpose of the various forums is to allow a range of views being presented and then with proper discussion some resolution of differences, and from my perspective the ultimate aim is not to support a particular group or teaching, even the view of the forum owners, but rather find what the Scriptures actually teach.
We were, but do you know what happens when we are born again of the Spirit? Our nature changes.
I agree with what Stephen has stated that our nature does not change. Where we differ with many is that we believe that Jesus was born with the fallen nature of Adam, but he never sinned and overcame the lusts of the flesh.
I have been born again for 45 years, so may have more practice walking in the Spirit.
I have great respect for many who live a godly life. As a Christadelphian I would also recommend that you may need to more completely understand the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Name Acts 8:5-6,12.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
I agree with what Stephen has stated that our nature does not change. Where we differ with many is that we believe that Jesus was born with the fallen nature of Adam, but he never sinned and overcame the lusts of the flesh.

What you don't seem to recognize is what the seed of the Father does for us. It doesn't matter that Mary was human, anymore than it matters what kind of people my parents were. What changed my nature is becoming born again of the Spirit. Just as Romans 6:6-7 shows, the old man (our sin nature) died on the cross with Jesus. IOW the entering of the Holy Spirit killed the old nature and placed a new nature inside me that partook of the divine nature of God. Because of the seed of the Father, Jesus was conceived and born with that "born again." How do you address these scriptures?

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Romans 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

2 Peter 1:2-4
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again CharismaticLady,
What you don't seem to recognize is what the seed of the Father does for us.
I suggest that you are mixing figurative language with what is literal. The spiritual disposition of mind is a gradual process Romans 12:1-2. Jesus was a descendant of Mary, and God as his Father did not wipe out his heredity from Adam.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Greetings again CharismaticLady,

I suggest that you are mixing figurative language with what is literal. The spiritual disposition of mind is a gradual process Romans 12:1-2. Jesus was a descendant of Mary, and God as his Father did not wipe out his heredity from Adam.

Kind regards
Trevor

No, it is instant and real. It is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We become free from the desire to sin instantly. But what is a process is glorification. That is the process of becoming like Jesus, already being given the mind of Christ. The growing has to do with the fruit of the Spirit to maturity. This has to do with the steps in 2 Peter 1:5-7
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again CharismaticLady,
No, it is instant and real. It is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. We become free from the desire to sin instantly.
This may be, or may have been your experience, but it has not been my experience. Yes, I am aware of spiritual growth and maturity, and overcoming some specific sins, but all of this was a gradual process. I do not claim to have a direct infusion of the Holy Spirit. I have not received an extra voice in my mind since my belief of the Gospel, repentance and baptism. Some of my bad habits of thought and action were hard to overcome. One of our youth leaders introduced the concept that he called replacement therapy, or sublimation and he spoke of Ephesians 4:20-32 and I recollect how he illustrated the petty thief of verse 28. Paul instructs the thief to cease from stealing, but then the therapy is for him to labour, using the very hands that previously stole, to make a product that is good or of benefit, and to share the fruits of his labour with someone in need. This type of therapy is part of my experience, not an instant freedom from the desire to sin. Yes, 2 Peter 1:5-7 is a good indication that we are not instantly transformed, so I am not sure if we differ here.

As far as the nature of Jesus, there was strong representation of two major views in 1873, one of them the present Christadelphian position and the other with some similarity to what you suggest. There was considerable discussion, but as a result there was very much a strong consolidation of our view that Christ inherited in himself the effects of Adam's transgression, but he overcame sin and the lusts of the flesh within himself Romans 8:3 and as a result the sentence of death upon Adam and his descendants was reversed and the grave could not hold him and thus God raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

CharismaticLady

Well-known member
Greetings again CharismaticLady,

This may be, or may have been your experience, but it has not been my experience. Yes, I am aware of spiritual growth and maturity, and overcoming some specific sins, but all of this was a gradual process. I do not claim to have a direct infusion of the Holy Spirit. I have not received an extra voice in my mind since my belief of the Gospel, repentance and baptism. Some of my bad habits of thought and action were hard to overcome. One of our youth leaders introduced the concept that he called replacement therapy, or sublimation and he spoke of Ephesians 4:20-32 and I recollect how he illustrated the petty thief of verse 28. Paul instructs the thief to cease from stealing, but then the therapy is for him to labour, using the very hands that previously stole, to make a product that is good or of benefit, and to share the fruits of his labour with someone in need. This type of therapy is part of my experience, not an instant freedom from the desire to sin. Yes, 2 Peter 1:5-7 is a good indication that we are not instantly transformed, so I am not sure if we differ here.

As far as the nature of Jesus, there was strong representation of two major views in 1873, one of them the present Christadelphian position and the other with some similarity to what you suggest. There was considerable discussion, but as a result there was very much a strong consolidation of our view that Christ inherited in himself the effects of Adam's transgression, but he overcame sin and the lusts of the flesh within himself Romans 8:3 and as a result the sentence of death upon Adam and his descendants was reversed and the grave could not hold him and thus God raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor
I didn't have the Holy Spirit for the first 30 years of going to church, and church school. All I did was learn the word which was a good foundation. But I wasn't saved. Romans 8:9 I didn't belong to Christ.

What you and many other denominations believe in the "getting better over time" taught as the process of sanctification is mere human works. What I experienced was none of me - I had given up - and ALL BY GOD.

Once the desire to sin is taken away, then comes the process of glorification, Romans 8:29-30 - maturing the fruit of the Spirit. THAT is what 2 Peter 1:5-7 is about, but read the previous verse 4. It shows you were already freed from sin called the lust of the world. The whole passage that I've almost memorized by now is 2 Peter 1:2-11. Then you will never even stumble. Those are the ones who will go to heaven. God has already made them sinless, but to be perfect is to become exactly like Christ. (5-7).
 

TrevorL

Active member
Greetings again CharismaticLady,
THAT is what 2 Peter 1:5-7 is about, but read the previous verse 4. It shows you were already freed from sin called the lust of the world. The whole passage that I've almost memorized by now is 2 Peter 1:2-11. Then you will never even stumble. Those are the ones who will go to heaven. God has already made them sinless, but to be perfect is to become exactly like Christ. (5-7).
I view 2 Peter 1:1-11 as our spiritual progress, but that we do not achieve sinlessness and perfection until Christ returns and changes our vile body and fashions it like unto his glorious body. I view the word stumble similar to "keep us from falling" or "from stumbling" NASB of Jude 24, not protecting us from the occasional sin, but falling away altogether. By the way, we do not believe in going to heaven, either at death or at the return of Jesus. We believe that Jesus will reign upon the earth for the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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