CARMS semi pelagians and their false teaching on regeneration

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guest1

Guest
REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH. This assertion that captures the heart of the distinctive theology of historic Augustinian and Reformed thought is the watershed assertion that distinguishes that theology from all forms of semi-Pelagianism. That is, it distinguishes it from almost all forms of semi-Pelagianism.

There is one historic position of semi-Pelagianism that advocates the view of a universal benefit that embraces all mankind as a result of the atonement of Jesus. This universal benefit is the universal regeneration of all men — at least to the degree that rescues them from the moral inability of their original sin and now empowers them with the ability to exercise faith in Christ. This new ability to believe makes faith possible but by no means effectual. This type of regeneration does not bring in its wake the certainty that those who are born again will in fact place their trust in Christ.

For the most part, however, the statement, “Regeneration precedes faith,” is the watershed position that creates apoplexy in the minds of semi-Pelagians. The semi-Pelagian would argue that despite the ravages of the fall, man still has an island of righteousness left in his soul, by which he still can accept or reject God’s offer of grace. This view, so widely held in evangelical circles, argues that one must believe in Christ in order to be born again, and so the order of salvation is reversed in this view by maintaining that faith precedes regeneration.

However, when we consider the teaching on this issue as found in John’s record of Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus, we see the emphasis that Jesus places on regeneration as a necessary condition, a sine qua non, for believing in Him. He says to Nicodemus in John 3:3: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then again in verses 5–7, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’” The must-ness of regeneration of which Jesus speaks is necessary for a person to see even the kingdom of God, let alone to enter it. We cannot exercise faith in a kingdom that we cannot enter apart from rebirth.

The weakness of all semi-Pelagianism is that it invests in the fallen, corrupt flesh of man the power to exercise faith. Here, fallen man is able to come to Christ without regeneration, that is, before regeneration. On the other hand, the axiom that regeneration precedes faith gets to the very heart of the historic issue between Augustinianism and semi-Pelagianism.

In the Augustinian and Reformation view, regeneration is seen first of all as a supernatural work of God. Regeneration is the divine work of God the Holy Spirit upon the minds and souls of fallen people, by which the Spirit quickens those who are spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive. This supernatural work rescues that person from his bondage to sin and his moral inability to incline himself towards the things of God. Regeneration, by being a supernatural work, is obviously a work that cannot be accomplished by natural man on his own. If it were a natural work, it would not require the intervention of God the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, regeneration is a monergistic work. “Monergistic” means that it is the work of one person who exercises his power. In the case of regeneration, it is God alone who is able, and it is God alone who performs the work of regenerating the human soul. The work of regeneration is not a joint venture between the fallen person and the divine Spirit; it is solely the work of God.

Thirdly, the monergistic work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an immediate work. It is immediate with respect to time, and it is immediate with respect to the principle of operating without intervening means. The Holy Spirit does not use something apart from His own power to bring a person from spiritual death to spiritual life, and when that work is accomplished, it is accomplished instantaneously. No one is partly regenerate, or almost regenerate. Here we have a classic either/or situation. A person is either born again, or he is not born again. There is no nine-month gestation period with respect to this birth. When the Spirit changes the disposition of the human soul, He does it instantly. A person may not be aware of this internal work accomplished by God for some time after it has actually occurred. But though our awareness of it may be gradual, the action of it is instantaneous.

Fourthly, the work of regeneration is effectual. That is, when the Holy Spirit regenerates a human soul, the purpose of that regeneration is to bring that person to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That purpose is effected and accomplished as God purposes in the intervention. Regeneration is more than giving a person the possibility of having faith, it gives him the certainty of possessing that saving faith.

The result of our regeneration is first of all faith, which then results in justification and adoption into the family of God. Nobody is born into this world a child of the family of God. We are born as children of wrath. The only way we enter into the family of God is by adoption, and that adoption occurs when we are united to God’s only begotten Son by faith. When by faith we are united with Christ, we are then adopted into that family of whom Christ is the firstborn. Regeneration therefore involves a new genesis, a new beginning, a new birth. It is that birth by which we enter into the family of God by adoption.

Finally, it’s important to see that regeneration is a gift that God disposes sovereignly to all of those whom He determines to bring into His family.


hope this helps !!!
 
G

guest1

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The word “regeneration,” which literally means “to beget again,” has been used by orthodox Protestant theologians in different ways over time. The older usage in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries included the Holy Spirit’s implantantion of new life in man’s heart as well as conversion (repentance and faith) and sanctification. In order to avoid confusion Reformed theologians eventually narrowed their usage of the term regeneration to its strict biblical usage alone. “In present day Reformed theology the word ‘regeneration’ is generally used in a more restricted sense, as a designation of that divine act by which the sinner is endowed with new spiritual life, and by which the principle of that new life is first called into action” (L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1949], p. 467). Schwertley

Regeneration
by J.I.Packer​
Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature.

Regeneration, or new birth, is an inner re-creating of fallen human nature by the gracious sovereign action of the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-8). The Bible conceives salvation as the redemptive renewal of man on the basis of a restored relationship with God in Christ, and presents it as involving "a radical and complete transformation wrought in the soul (Rom. 12:2; Eph. 4:23) by God the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5; Eph. 4:24), by virtue of which we become 'new men' (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10), no longer conformed to this world (Rom. 12:2; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9), but in knowledge and holiness of the truth created after the image of God (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; Rom. 12:2)" (B. B. Warfield, Biblical and Theological Studies, 351). Regeneration is the "birth" by which this work of new creation is begun, as sanctification is the "growth" whereby it continues (I Pet. 2:2; II Pet. 3:18). Regeneration in Christ changes the disposition from lawless, Godless self-seeking (Rom. 3:9-18; 8:7) which dominates man in Adam into one of trust and love, of repentance for past rebelliousness and unbelief, and loving compliance with God's law henceforth. It enlightens the blinded mind to discern spiritual realities (I Cor. 2:14-15; II Cor. 4:6; Col. 3:10), and liberates and energizes the enslaved will for free obedience to God (Rom. 6:14, 17-22; Phil. 2:13).

The use of the figure of new birth to describe this change emphasizes two facts about it. The first is its decisiveness. The regenerate man has forever ceased to be the man he was; his old life is over and a new life has begun; he is a new creature in Christ, buried with him out of reach of condemnation and raised with him into a new life of righteousness (see Rom. 6:3-11; II Cor. 5:17; Col. 3:9-11). The second fact emphasized is the monergism of regeneration. Infants do not induce, or cooperate in, their own procreation and birth; no more can those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" prompt the quickening operation of God's Spirit within them (see Eph. 2:1-10). Spiritual vivification is a free, and to man mysterious, exercise of divine power (John 3:8), not explicable in terms of the combination or cultivation of existing human resources (John 3:6), not caused or induced by any human efforts (John 1:12-13) or merits (Titus 3:3-7), and not, therefore, to be equated with, or attributed to, any of the experiences, decisions, and acts to which it gives rise and by which it may be known to have taken place. https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer_regen.html

hope this helps !!!
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
civic

The result of our regeneration is first of all faith, which then results in justification and adoption into the family of God.

Is that Justification before God and His Law and Justice or Justification before the persons conscience ?
 

Simpletruther

Well-known member
REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH. This assertion that captures the heart of the distinctive theology of historic Augustinian and Reformed thought is the watershed assertion that distinguishes that theology from all forms of semi-Pelagianism. That is, it distinguishes it from almost all forms of semi-Pelagianism.

There is one historic position of semi-Pelagianism that advocates the view of a universal benefit that embraces all mankind as a result of the atonement of Jesus. This universal benefit is the universal regeneration of all men — at least to the degree that rescues them from the moral inability of their original sin and now empowers them with the ability to exercise faith in Christ. This new ability to believe makes faith possible but by no means effectual. This type of regeneration does not bring in its wake the certainty that those who are born again will in fact place their trust in Christ.

For the most part, however, the statement, “Regeneration precedes faith,” is the watershed position that creates apoplexy in the minds of semi-Pelagians. The semi-Pelagian would argue that despite the ravages of the fall, man still has an island of righteousness left in his soul, by which he still can accept or reject God’s offer of grace. This view, so widely held in evangelical circles, argues that one must believe in Christ in order to be born again, and so the order of salvation is reversed in this view by maintaining that faith precedes regeneration.

However, when we consider the teaching on this issue as found in John’s record of Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus, we see the emphasis that Jesus places on regeneration as a necessary condition, a sine qua non, for believing in Him. He says to Nicodemus in John 3:3: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then again in verses 5–7, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’” The must-ness of regeneration of which Jesus speaks is necessary for a person to see even the kingdom of God, let alone to enter it. We cannot exercise faith in a kingdom that we cannot enter apart from rebirth.

The weakness of all semi-Pelagianism is that it invests in the fallen, corrupt flesh of man the power to exercise faith. Here, fallen man is able to come to Christ without regeneration, that is, before regeneration. On the other hand, the axiom that regeneration precedes faith gets to the very heart of the historic issue between Augustinianism and semi-Pelagianism.

In the Augustinian and Reformation view, regeneration is seen first of all as a supernatural work of God. Regeneration is the divine work of God the Holy Spirit upon the minds and souls of fallen people, by which the Spirit quickens those who are spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive. This supernatural work rescues that person from his bondage to sin and his moral inability to incline himself towards the things of God. Regeneration, by being a supernatural work, is obviously a work that cannot be accomplished by natural man on his own. If it were a natural work, it would not require the intervention of God the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, regeneration is a monergistic work. “Monergistic” means that it is the work of one person who exercises his power. In the case of regeneration, it is God alone who is able, and it is God alone who performs the work of regenerating the human soul. The work of regeneration is not a joint venture between the fallen person and the divine Spirit; it is solely the work of God.

Thirdly, the monergistic work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an immediate work. It is immediate with respect to time, and it is immediate with respect to the principle of operating without intervening means. The Holy Spirit does not use something apart from His own power to bring a person from spiritual death to spiritual life, and when that work is accomplished, it is accomplished instantaneously. No one is partly regenerate, or almost regenerate. Here we have a classic either/or situation. A person is either born again, or he is not born again. There is no nine-month gestation period with respect to this birth. When the Spirit changes the disposition of the human soul, He does it instantly. A person may not be aware of this internal work accomplished by God for some time after it has actually occurred. But though our awareness of it may be gradual, the action of it is instantaneous.

Fourthly, the work of regeneration is effectual. That is, when the Holy Spirit regenerates a human soul, the purpose of that regeneration is to bring that person to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That purpose is effected and accomplished as God purposes in the intervention. Regeneration is more than giving a person the possibility of having faith, it gives him the certainty of possessing that saving faith.

The result of our regeneration is first of all faith, which then results in justification and adoption into the family of God. Nobody is born into this world a child of the family of God. We are born as children of wrath. The only way we enter into the family of God is by adoption, and that adoption occurs when we are united to God’s only begotten Son by faith. When by faith we are united with Christ, we are then adopted into that family of whom Christ is the firstborn. Regeneration therefore involves a new genesis, a new beginning, a new birth. It is that birth by which we enter into the family of God by adoption.

Finally, it’s important to see that regeneration is a gift that God disposes sovereignly to all of those whom He determines to bring into His family.


hope this helps !!!
I think semipalegian is a divisive label.

It's like their side calling us semi fatalists.

It logically is also the same as calling our brothers "semiheretics"
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I think semipalegian is a divisive label.

It's like their side calling us semi fatalists.

It logically is also the same as calling our brothers "semiheretics"
I have read the Bible from the beginning to the end, and don’t find the words Pelagian and semi-Pelagian anywhere in the Bible. These guys don’t have a biblical answer to give to their critics, so the only thing they are left with is name-calling and and assigning labels.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I have read the Bible from the beginning to the end, and don’t find the words Pelagian and semi-Pelagian anywhere in the Bible. These guys don’t have a biblical answer to give to their critics, so the only thing they are left with is name-calling and and assigning labels.

Yeah, and the word "Mormon" isn't found in the Bible, either.
Nor is the name, "Joseph Smith".

Way to shoot yourself in the foot, Mormon! ;)
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Yeah, and the word "Mormon" isn't found in the Bible, either.
Nor is the name, "Joseph Smith".

Way to shoot yourself in the foot, Mormon!
;)
The correct name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I can find all of those words for you in the Bible.
 
G

guest1

Guest
The correct name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and I can find all of those words for you in the Bible.
Which is not in the Bible either rofl.

But like scrabble you can make up your own sentences and words to make the Bible say whatever you want as is the case with your bold words above .
 
G

guest1

Guest
Dumb comment. The word “church” is in the Bible, “Jesus Christ” is in the Bible, “latter days” is, “saint” is, so what is wrong with that title?
Well why stop there what about

The saints of Jesus Christ from the latter day church of Joseph Smith from the lost tribes of Israel by the angel ( not in the Bible ) Moroni who deceived the false prophet .

Those words are all in the Bible too

hope this helps !!!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
A question for Calvinists: What is the correct doctrine of repentance in your theology? Do regenerate people still sin? Are they still sinners? Or have they stopped sinning?
The Doctrine of Repentance is the same for every Christian; Repentance is doing a U-Turn from Sin and running the other way like Joseph did; and nailing Sin to the Cross. All Christians are Regenerate, whether they believe Regeneration happens before or after their Faith; and Christians still Sin, as Saint Paul said he himself did. Technically it wasn't Saint Paul but 'remaining Sin in him' that did it; so the answer is a Two-Edged Sword. If Paul thought he had stopped Sinning, he was still Sinning; even if he thought he could achieve Sinless Perfection. Saint Peter was confronted by Paul for his Sin of Supping with Jews at the 'Judaizer Table'. Christians are no longer in the Category of 'Sinners', to say they are is a Category Mistake. When a Christian is in-Christ they're now Categorized as being Sinless as a Spotless Lamb, and the LORD Jesus Christ was Categorized as the Sinner; we 'become' the Righteousness of God, and Jesus 'became' Sin/the Sinner. Christians are 'already' Seated in the Heavenlies with Christ Jesus, so we are now not Sinners. Saints do not stop Sinning. After the Disciples were Baptized, Jesus washed their Feet; and this new washing was for the new Sins they had just committed...

Do Mormons ever Wash their Feet after they were Baptized, for the purpose of removing new Sins?
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Dumb comment. The word “church” is in the Bible, “Jesus Christ” is in the Bible, “latter days” is, “saint” is, so what is wrong with that title?

Because the purpose of Scripture is NOT to rip apart separate words and rearrange them into your own personal message not found in Scripture, like some kidnapper trying to make a ransom note out of a newspaper.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Well why stop there what about

The saints of Jesus Christ from the latter day church of Joseph Smith from the lost tribes of Israel by the angel ( not in the Bible ) Moroni who deceived the false prophet .

Those words are all in the Bible too

hope this helps !!!
There is one problem with that. The official name of the Church was given by revelation, by Jesus himself:

Doctrine and Covenants 115:

4 For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


It was not the invention of some man. And there is a lot of theological significance attached to it as well. It is “the Church of Jesus Christ” first and foremost, which speaks for itself. It is not the church of Luther, or Calvin, or Joseph Smith, or any other man. Secondly, it is composed of “saints” of latter days, to distinguish it from those of the ancient church. In the Bible Christians, the true believers, are called “saints,” and so are they today.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
The Doctrine of Repentance is the same for every Christian; Repentance is doing a U-Turn from Sin and running the other way like Joseph did; and nailing Sin to the Cross. All Christians are Regenerate, whether they believe Regeneration happens before or after their Faith; and Christians still Sin, as Saint Paul said he himself did. Technically it wasn't Saint Paul but 'remaining Sin in him' that did it; so the answer is a Two-Edged Sword. If Paul thought he had stopped Sinning, he was still Sinning; even if he thought he could achieve Sinless Perfection. Saint Peter was confronted by Paul for his Sin of Supping with Jews at the 'Judaizer Table'. Christians are no longer in the Category of 'Sinners', to say they are is a Category Mistake. When a Christian is in-Christ they're now Categorized as being Sinless as a Spotless Lamb, and the LORD Jesus Christ was Categorized as the Sinner; we 'become' the Righteousness of God, and Jesus 'became' Sin/the Sinner. Christians are 'already' Seated in the Heavenlies with Christ Jesus, so we are now not Sinners. Saints do not stop Sinning. After the Disciples were Baptized, Jesus washed their Feet; and this new washing was for the new Sins they had just committed...

Do Mormons ever Wash their Feet after they were Baptized, for the purpose of removing new Sins?
So “regenerate” people still sin, according to your theology, but not according to the Bible:

1 John 3:

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


So you guys are not regenerate then, because you still sin. LOL! Go figure.
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
So “regenerate” people still sin, according to your theology, but not according to the Bible:

1 John 3:

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In Greek, the present tense has "continuous" action, and in Greek the action is often more important than the time of the tense. So this is speaking of someone being born of God not "continuing in sin", or making sin a "habit" of their lifestyle.

As Greek scholar A.T. Robertson writes:

9. Doeth no sin (hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like hamartanei in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin. His seed (sperma autou). God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. John 1. And he cannot sin (kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were kai ou dunatai hamartein or hamartēsai (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of hamartanei in verse 8 and hamartanōn in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see hamartēte and hamartēi in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John’s idea in Rom. 6:1 epimenōmen tēi hamartiāi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with hamartēsōmen in Rom. 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).
-- A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures of the New Testament, 1 John 3:9

See also:

9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. This passage must either mean that they who are born of God, that is, who are true Christians, do not sin habitually and characteristically, or that every one who is a true Christian is absolutely perfect, and never commits any sin. If it can be used as referring to the doctrine of absolute perfection at all, it proves, not that Christians may be perfect, or that a portion of them are, but that all are. But who can maintain this? Who can believe that John meant to affirm this? Nothing can be clearer than that the passage has not this meaning, and that John did not teach a doctrine so contrary to the current strain of the Scriptures, and to fact; and if he did not teach this, then in this whole passage he refers to those who are habitually and characteristically righteous.
-- Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament, 1 John 3:9

So you guys are not regenerate then, because you still sin. LOL! Go figure.

And you're sinless?
Sorry, you're a Mormon, so no.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So “regenerate” people still sin, according to your theology, but not according to the Bible:

1 John 3:

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:

18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


So you guys are not regenerate then, because you still sin. LOL! Go figure.
This is one reason I don't talk to you much. You know the Bible Say that 'Saint' Paul did the evil he didn't want to do and he didn't do the Good he wanted to do; who will deliver him from his body of death? Combine this with him saying it is no longer him Sinning, but it was remaining Sin in him doing it; and your Conundrum is solved. Of course your Pretexts are true, but when you distance a Pretext from the whole Text, you don't have a Systematic Theology, and have a two-headed Nickle that suits yourself...

Let me know when you want to talk again; really want to talk...
 

zerinus

Well-known member
This is one reason I don't talk to you much. You know the Bible Say that 'Saint' Paul did the evil he didn't want to do and he didn't do the Good he wanted to do; who will deliver him from his body of death? Combine this with him saying it is no longer him Sinning but remaining Sin in him doing it; and your Conundrum is solved. Of course your Pretexts are true, but when you distance a Pretext from the whole Text, you don't have a Systematic Theology, but have a two-headed Nickle that suits yourself...

Let me know when you want to talk again; really want to talk...
You are simply pitting one scripture against another. You are saying, “My scripture is better than yours!” Who says? I think that my scripture is better.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You are simply pitting one scripture against another. You are saying, “My scripture is better than yours!” Who says? I think that my scripture is better.
Theology doesn't Pit a Verse against another Verse; it marries them together...

So since you suppose I Pit Scripture against Scripture, you do the same thing when you Pit your Scripture against the Verses I used; it goes both ways. because you said "I think that my Scripture is better". That's not Marrying Scripture to Scripture, that's Divorcing them; and God Hates Divorce, unless you have a Pretext which says God doesn't Hate Divorce? Then it might be a better verse, right?

So if I would be wrong if I were to Pit Scripture against Scripture, it would be wrong for you to do it too, Right?
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
This is one reason I don't talk to you much. You know the Bible Say that 'Saint' Paul did the evil he didn't want to do and he didn't do the Good he wanted to do; who will deliver him from his body of death? Combine this with him saying it is no longer him Sinning, but it was remaining Sin in him doing it; and your Conundrum is solved. Of course your Pretexts are true, but when you distance a Pretext from the whole Text, you don't have a Systematic Theology, and have a two-headed Nickle that suits yourself...

Let me know when you want to talk again; really want to talk...
Yes, but that isn't even remotely the issue rev. It is the fact he has a false christ, gospel, and god in which there is no salvation. His misunderstanding of the process of sanctification, even if lined out, won't change one thing in him spiritually. He must repent and believe, and come out from under the indictment of John 8:24.
 
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