zerinus
Well-known member
Fair enough. I have my own way of marrying them. Let’s see how you marry them first, and then I will tell you mine. How do you reconcile Paul’s words with John’s, which clearly states that regenerate people don’t sin?
Oldsaint24
Well-known member
So how much time usually passes between regeneration and adoption? Few seconds? Hours? Days? Weeks? Years? Decades?Fourthly, the work of regeneration is effectual. That is, when the Holy Spirit regenerates a human soul, the purpose of that regeneration is to bring that person to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That purpose is effected and accomplished as God purposes in the intervention. Regeneration is more than giving a person the possibility of having faith, it gives him the certainty of possessing that saving faith.
The result of our regeneration is first of all faith, which then results in justification and adoption into the family of God. Nobody is born into this world a child of the family of God. We are born as children of wrath. The only way we enter into the family of God is by adoption, and that adoption occurs when we are united to God’s only begotten Son by faith. When by faith we are united with Christ, we are then adopted into that family of whom Christ is the firstborn. Regeneration therefore involves a new genesis, a new beginning, a new birth. It is that birth by which we enter into the family of God by adoption.
Finally, it’s important to see that regeneration is a gift that God disposes sovereignly to all of those whom He determines to bring into His family.
The New Birth by R.C. Sproul
REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH. This assertion that captures the heart of the distinctive theology of historic Augustinian and Reformed thought is the watershed assertion that distinguishes that theology from all forms ... %}www.ligonier.org
hope this helps !!!
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Paul said it is no longer him that Sins, but Remaining Sin does. Paul said "Who will deliver me from this Body of Death?". The Body is still Fallen, and the Soul is still Fallen, but the Human spirit is Born Again. Paul was Born Again in Spirit Alone; but he still had to resist the "Old Man" within. As Christians, we're to put off the 'Old Man' who is corrupt due to it's deceitful Lusts. This is the Present Tense condition of the Saint; it's found in Ephesians chapter 4. There is a duality here; We are Sinners, and we're not Sinners; IE Compatibalism. Your Verses are right; all of the Bible is right, no verse is better than the other. The Regenerate are not Sinners; the Regenerate are Sinners. You ask, how can that be? All Scripture is good for Doctrine, right? So verses have to be Married in Theology since they're all Good for Doctrine, even when it boggles the Fallen Mind. ~ Paul and John are both right. Paul was taught and sent out by Peter, James and 'John'; so they agreed on everything. Paul believed John's Doctrine, and John believed Paul's Doctrine; if they could believe both, why can't we believe both? Peter said some of Paul's Doctrine is hard to understand, he didn't say Paul's Doctrine was wrong; remember, Paul was taught and sent by Saint Peter too. This means that John and Peter agreed with Paul that they didn't Sin but 'Remaining Sin" did the things they didn't want to do, and that 'the Old Man" didn't do the things they wanted to do...
This Reconciles/Marries the two, right? Please don't believe the purpose of each Epistle is about the Apostles determining to Rebuke one another's Doctrine; how could the Bible survive that?
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zerinus
Well-known member
You are putting a brave face on it, and doing the best you can; but there are two issues with that argument. The first is the logic of it is faulty, it presents an irrational argument. You can’t be both a sinner and not a sinner at the same time. It is either one or the other. The other problem with it is that it still disagrees with John. John doesn’t say that when someone is “born of God,” his body sins, but his spirit doesn’t. He says that he “doth not commit” and “cannot sin” (1 John 3:9), and “that wicked one toucheth him not” (1 John 5:18). That is not the same as saying that his body sins, but his spirit doesn’t.
That is not correct either. Paul, by his own admission, was never taught or sent by anyone other than Jesus himself. Paul never met Peter before his encounter with Jesus, nor for a long time afterwards:
Galatians 1:
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
20 Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
21 Afterwards I came into the regions of Syria and Cilicia;
22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
24 And they glorified God in me.
Still overlooking too many scriptures. Don’t you guys say that Paul rebukes Peter in Galatians 2:11–14?
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TomFL
Guest
Scripture not RC Sproul or Calvinism determines truth
Ezekiel 16:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”
“…get a new heart and a new spirit.”
Verse 32 makes it even more simple:
“Repent and…”
“…live!”
Life comes from repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
You are not even given to right to become a child of God, much less be born again as his child, UNTIL you “receive him” and “believe in his name.” And while placing our trust in Christ is man’s responsibility, the work of regeneration is all of God’s doing. It does not come by way of inheritance, marriage, works or striving (Rom. 9:30-32).
Galatians 3:26
“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“You are all sons of God…”
“…through faith in Christ…”
Obviously, becoming a son (born of God) is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit…”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“when you heard the message of truth…when you believed
“you were included in Christ…you were marked in him…”
Galatians 3:2, 5
“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?… So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…received the Spirit…”
“…by believing what you heard…”
2 Corinthians 3:14-16
“But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…anyone turns to the Lord…” (by faith)
“…the veil is taken away.”
1 Timothy 1:16
“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”
Colossians 2:12
“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”
James 1:18
“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
The order is laid out
Gave us birth
by the word of God
Belief in the word precedes being born again
1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
The order is laid out as follows
begotten you
through the gospel
Believing the gospel precedes being begotten
Deterministic philosphy borrowed from gnostic and Manichean sources cannot replace scripture
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TomFL
Guest
This leaves out Jesus answer on how can these things be
John 3:9-18 (KJV)
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The Bible makes it clear. If we say we have no sin, we lie, and the truth is not in us. (Apostle John). The Bible also says when we sin, we have an intercessor, and we also have I John 1:9. The understanding is that we will sin, but, we will not live in a pattern of habitual sin because we come to hate sin. We will be convicted to the soul when we sin, and we will run to God (and I John 1:9). We will not live in sin (pattern of habitual sin) as believers, but we are still human, and are still here on Earth. The difference is that as Christians, we react when we sin, unable to
Do you believe that the faith is the result, a reaction to, regeneration? (My exaggerated example is looking for a wife, seeing someone from behind, deciding they are the one for you, and then HE turns around and asks if you will be HIS WIFE. How quickly would your mind be completely and utterly changed by this change of events?)REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH. This assertion that captures the heart of the distinctive theology of historic Augustinian and Reformed thought is the watershed assertion that distinguishes that theology from all forms of semi-Pelagianism. That is, it distinguishes it from almost all forms of semi-Pelagianism.
There is one historic position of semi-Pelagianism that advocates the view of a universal benefit that embraces all mankind as a result of the atonement of Jesus. This universal benefit is the universal regeneration of all men — at least to the degree that rescues them from the moral inability of their original sin and now empowers them with the ability to exercise faith in Christ. This new ability to believe makes faith possible but by no means effectual. This type of regeneration does not bring in its wake the certainty that those who are born again will in fact place their trust in Christ.
For the most part, however, the statement, “Regeneration precedes faith,” is the watershed position that creates apoplexy in the minds of semi-Pelagians. The semi-Pelagian would argue that despite the ravages of the fall, man still has an island of righteousness left in his soul, by which he still can accept or reject God’s offer of grace. This view, so widely held in evangelical circles, argues that one must believe in Christ in order to be born again, and so the order of salvation is reversed in this view by maintaining that faith precedes regeneration.
However, when we consider the teaching on this issue as found in John’s record of Jesus’ discussion with Nicodemus, we see the emphasis that Jesus places on regeneration as a necessary condition, a sine qua non, for believing in Him. He says to Nicodemus in John 3:3: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then again in verses 5–7, Jesus says, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’” The must-ness of regeneration of which Jesus speaks is necessary for a person to see even the kingdom of God, let alone to enter it. We cannot exercise faith in a kingdom that we cannot enter apart from rebirth.
The weakness of all semi-Pelagianism is that it invests in the fallen, corrupt flesh of man the power to exercise faith. Here, fallen man is able to come to Christ without regeneration, that is, before regeneration. On the other hand, the axiom that regeneration precedes faith gets to the very heart of the historic issue between Augustinianism and semi-Pelagianism.
In the Augustinian and Reformation view, regeneration is seen first of all as a supernatural work of God. Regeneration is the divine work of God the Holy Spirit upon the minds and souls of fallen people, by which the Spirit quickens those who are spiritually dead and makes them spiritually alive. This supernatural work rescues that person from his bondage to sin and his moral inability to incline himself towards the things of God. Regeneration, by being a supernatural work, is obviously a work that cannot be accomplished by natural man on his own. If it were a natural work, it would not require the intervention of God the Holy Spirit.
Secondly, regeneration is a monergistic work. “Monergistic” means that it is the work of one person who exercises his power. In the case of regeneration, it is God alone who is able, and it is God alone who performs the work of regenerating the human soul. The work of regeneration is not a joint venture between the fallen person and the divine Spirit; it is solely the work of God.
Thirdly, the monergistic work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit is an immediate work. It is immediate with respect to time, and it is immediate with respect to the principle of operating without intervening means. The Holy Spirit does not use something apart from His own power to bring a person from spiritual death to spiritual life, and when that work is accomplished, it is accomplished instantaneously. No one is partly regenerate, or almost regenerate. Here we have a classic either/or situation. A person is either born again, or he is not born again. There is no nine-month gestation period with respect to this birth. When the Spirit changes the disposition of the human soul, He does it instantly. A person may not be aware of this internal work accomplished by God for some time after it has actually occurred. But though our awareness of it may be gradual, the action of it is instantaneous.
Fourthly, the work of regeneration is effectual. That is, when the Holy Spirit regenerates a human soul, the purpose of that regeneration is to bring that person to saving faith in Jesus Christ. That purpose is effected and accomplished as God purposes in the intervention. Regeneration is more than giving a person the possibility of having faith, it gives him the certainty of possessing that saving faith.
The result of our regeneration is first of all faith, which then results in justification and adoption into the family of God. Nobody is born into this world a child of the family of God. We are born as children of wrath. The only way we enter into the family of God is by adoption, and that adoption occurs when we are united to God’s only begotten Son by faith. When by faith we are united with Christ, we are then adopted into that family of whom Christ is the firstborn. Regeneration therefore involves a new genesis, a new beginning, a new birth. It is that birth by which we enter into the family of God by adoption.
Finally, it’s important to see that regeneration is a gift that God disposes sovereignly to all of those whom He determines to bring into His family.
The New Birth by R.C. Sproul
REGENERATION PRECEDES FAITH. This assertion that captures the heart of the distinctive theology of historic Augustinian and Reformed thought is the watershed assertion that distinguishes that theology from all forms ... %}
hope this helps !!!
G
guest1
Guest
Yes I believer faith is the result of regeneration. Since salvific faith, the gospel and God is spiritual , the natural man thinks its foolishness and they are dead in their sins. So they must first have life in them (regeneration) to respond to the gospel in faith.
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guest1
Guest
For there to be death there must first be life. Life precedes death. So those who are dead do not have life.
The dead are incapable of responding to stimuli. As per Colossians 2 and Ephesians 2 men are dead in their sins with no spiritual life. As per 1 Cor 2 spiritual things are foolishness to them for they cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned. Only those with the spirit(life) can understand the things of the Lord.
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The dead are incapable of responding to stimuli. As per Colossians 2 and Ephesians 2 men are dead in their sins with no spiritual life. As per 1 Cor 2 spiritual things are foolishness to them for they cannot understand them for they are spiritually discerned. Only those with the spirit(life) can understand the things of the Lord.
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TomFL
Guest
Neither verse teaches that
Both show faith is needed before life
Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
being made alive is salvation
salvation is through faith
Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
risen through faith
Spiritual things are foolish to the psuchikos - those who view eveything in terms of baser human wisdom rather than the wisdom which comes from God
while other were being saved by
1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
the foolishness of preaching having believed
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I am not asking to attack you or anything, so don't misunderstand the reason for my question. I was just asking if you believe that faith is a reaction that spontaneously results from the change of mind, thought, and world view by regeneration, and not something that is given by God. (That is to say, God does not have to give it because it is built in to the step by step of salvation. Mind blown, no hope in life, hope presented, faith born, salvation comes. [Yes, that is my own way of wording it.] One realizes who they are and that they have no hope. The gospel presents hope. Faith comes forth and seizes that hope. Man comes to God in faith and is saved. (Very, very much simplified as there is so much more to it.) Consider the jailer Paul speaks to. The jailer very much sees no hope to his life, he is dead because his prisoners have escaped. It is over for him. Paul says, not to worry, we are all still here. The jailer, very much under the weight of hopelessness cries out and asks what he must do to be saved. Paul gives him the message of hope in saying "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." A definitive answer of hope. You will be saved, if you believe.
I agree with what you believe (from what I have read), this was just a question on some finer points.
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TomFL
Guest
Faith and then life
John 20:31 (ESV)
31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 5:40 (ESV)
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
John 6:53 (ESV)
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
John 6:57 (ESV)
57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Acts 11:18 (ESV)
18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
etc
Wrong again. One cannot understand the mysteries of God without the spirit, for they are but "natural" men. The regeneration is the spirit which is dead within unbelievers, coming to life. Understanding spiritual things is now possible. Due to this, faith is born. That faith leads the sinner to the feet of Christ, to repentance, and salvation.
Now if I was to ask you a question it would be, could you present scripture without ripping it from context? Is that possible? John 20:31 has nothing to do with what you are saying. How do I know? I read John 20:30. Not to mention the title given to these passages. "The Purpose of This Book". You tear a lot of scripture out of context. I'm surprised you forget that I keep going back and putting back in the verses you ignore.
John 20:30-31 "30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." If you read these together, you can understand why the title given is "The Purpose of This Book", and not "the steps of salvation". It is not given as instruction, but as showing the reason John was written. To put in words the heart of the gospel, as Jesus did a lot and taught a lot which the author could not even begin to write down, in hopes it might lead some to salvation.
John 6 sent a lot of Jesus so called followers away. Jesus was not giving the framework of salvation to anyone here, and it does not show faith, and then life. If anything, it actually expounds upon unconditional election.
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TomFL
Guest
Sorry you just ignored scripture
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
there is a clear order here
Believe that you might have life
Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
repent unto life
John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
come to Christ through dfaith that you might have life
You have not shown context mitigates against my claim in any manner
It is easy tom make claims. Put some fact behind it
Yes purpose
So what is his purpose
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
First
so John writes that you might believe
Obviously John believes his testimony sufficient to cause belief
Scripture clearly backs up such a concept
John 1:7 (KJV)
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
John 17:20 (KJV)
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Same book same author
And he obviously believes testimony sufficient to bring about faith
So why does John want men to believe
He states it plainly
John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
So through believing one might have life
The order clearly is believe and then have life
John's purpose for writing refutes you
Now for the verse you allude to
1Cor is dealing with wisdom - human natural base wisdom or the wisdom which comes from God
Those who depend on this base wisdom will find the cross foolish
Further without the Spirit one cannot know what is in the mind of God
The spirit had revealed these hidden deeper things of God to the apostles
The apostles in turn preached this truth. This truth was not impossible to understand or believe as some got saved by it
1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Maybe next time before you speak about context and ripping verses from scripture you might actually check your own work
BTW it might also help if you tried to correlate your view with the whole of scripture
Here are many proof the gospel may be understood
Preaching the Gospel !
Grace is antecedent in the preservation of the saints ! Ps 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. The saints are preserved forever, that is their spiritual interest in Christ. Now it is a...
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
Compatibalists don't ignore Scripture...
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TomFL
Guest
Yeah actually they do
CARMS semi pelagians and their false teaching on regeneration
Theology doesn't Pit a Verse against another Verse; it marries them together... So since you suppose I Pit Scripture against Scripture, you do the same thing when you Pit your Scripture against the Verses I used; it goes both ways. because you said "I think that my Scripture is better". That's...
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
True Compatibalists don't ignore Scripture. I know your stance on this, and you know my stance on this. Since we haven't spoken about it in a while, I just thought I needed to remind the Lurkers that Compatibalists don't ignore Scripture. They take the stance that All Scripture is Good for all of the Holy Ghost's Doctrine; but it's not Good for any doctrine of Man. ~ For instance, the Bible says we "can't" believe and we "can" believe; so these two Truths are Systematic and Compatible. Every time a Verse says we 'can', we must Presume that Grace has already appeared to us and made a 'real' difference in our Lives. Otherwise we're Saved by our very own Prevenient Free Will, and Prevenient Grace is no longer Prevenient...
Every Calvinist should tell you this every time they talk to you...
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TomFL
Guest
ReverendRV
Well-known member
You disagree that God's Grace is Prevenient?
If you do, now is a good time to admit it and stand proud. If you're right, you're right; and we need to know if one is only made Right with God, when we agree Salvation is by Prevenient Faith...
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TomFL
Guest
No
that compatibilists are immune from ignoring scripture when it does not agree with them