Catch 22 Calvinist style

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TomFL

Well-known member
The verse is a familiar one

1 Cor. 2:14 —KJV
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

According to Calvinist a natural man is a man without the spirit

This man cannot receive the things of God they are foolishness to him. He cannot even understand the gospel

Ok so what is needed according to Paul so one can receive knowledge from the Spirit

1 Cor. 2:11–13 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

One must have the spirit

Now if one must have the Spirit before one can understand the gospel

We have a huge problem

You cannot have the Spirit without faith in the gospel and Christ

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Gal. 3:13–14 —KJV
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

So we need the spirit to understand the gospel but we cannot have the spirit because we do not have faith in the gospel
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

The “Spirit who is from God” is necessary in order to “understand the things freely given us by God”!

And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:13

Remember this verse does NOT say “interpreting spiritual truths to those who are” natural!

Why?

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Natural man must be regenerated, made spiritual man first, in order to understand and believe the Gospel!

Now what are these "things of the Spirit of God" which people can't grasp without first being made spiritual alive/ regenerated first?

The context makes this very clear. Notice the word "folly" or "foolishness" in verse 14.
Whatever "the things of the Spirit of God" are, they are folly to the natural man. Chapter 1, verse 18 shows us what this is: "The word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved (by regeneration) it is the power of God."
The same thing in verses 23–24: "We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called (regenerated), both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

In other words, what the natural man can't understand is the heart of the Christian message—the word of the cross - without first being regenerated!


Even Paul himself calls his message “folly”...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. - 1 Corinthians 1:21

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. - 1 Corinthians 2:2

Regeneration Necessarily Precedes Faith!
Regeneration Has A Specific Purpose in Salvation!​
 
Sketo

Sketo

Well-known member
TomFL said:
The verse is a familiar one

1 Cor. 2:14 —KJV
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

According to Calvinist a natural man is a man without the spirit
Click to expand...
Nope! According to Calvinist a natural man is a man who is spiritually dead!
This is not the same as “without the” Spirit!
TomFL said:
One must have the spirit

Now if one must have the Spirit before one can understand the gospel

We have a huge problem

You cannot have the Spirit without faith in the gospel and Christ
So we need the spirit to understand the gospel but we cannot have the spirit because we do not have faith in the gospel
Click to expand...

I can already see... You are going to confuse man’s spirit and God’s Spirit!

This will be your downfall in this thread...
 
zerinus

zerinus

Well-known member
TomFL said:
The verse is a familiar one

1 Cor. 2:14 —KJV
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

According to Calvinist a natural man is a man without the spirit
Click to expand...
I am not a Calvinist, and I don't claim expertise on their theology; but as far as I know that does not accurately reflect their theology; I think they would say that the "natural man" is somebody who has not yet been "regenerated".
TomFL said:
This man cannot receive the things of God they are foolishness to him. He cannot even understand the gospel

Ok so what is needed according to Paul so one can receive knowledge from the Spirit

1 Cor. 2:11–13 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

One must have the spirit
Click to expand...
According to Calvinism, you can't have that until you are regenerated first, which according to them is the unconditional and unmerited gift of God! It is wrong, but you are not doing a very good job of picking holes in it. You need to become a Mormon to figure out how to get it right! :LOL:
TomFL said:
Now if one must have the Spirit before one can understand the gospel

We have a huge problem

You cannot have the Spirit without faith in the gospel and Christ

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Gal. 3:13–14 —KJV
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

So we need the spirit to understand the gospel but we cannot have the spirit because we do not have faith in the gospel
Click to expand...
Faith comes by "hearing the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). When the word of God is preached by the power of the Spirit of God, faith is generated in the heart of those receive the word on "good ground" (Mark 4:8), and do not "harden their hearts" (Heb. 3:8, 15; 4:7). That faith then leads to conversion, which leads to acceptance of the gospel, which leads to regeneration and a renewing of the mind, and receiving a greater abundance of the Spirit ofGod, which leads to greater comprehension of the gospel, which continues to grow and increase until the perfect day (Prov. 4:18; Eph. 4:13).
 
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T

TomFL

Well-known member
zerinus said:
I am not a Calvinist, and I don't claim expertise on their theology; but as far as I know that does not accurately reflect their theology; I think they would say that the "natural man" is somebody who has not yet been "regenerated".

According to Calvinism, you can't have that until you are regenerated first, which according to them is the unconditional and unmerited gift of God! It is wrong, but you are not doing a very good job of picking holes in it. You need to become a Mormon to figure out how to get it right! :LOL:

Faith comes by "hearing the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). When the word of God is preached by the power of the Spirit of God, faith is generated in the heart of those receive the word on "good ground" (Mark 4:8), and do not "harden their hearts" (Heb. 3:8, 15; 4:7). That faith then leads to conversion, which leads to acceptance of the gospel, which leads to regeneration and receiving a greater abundance of the Spirit, which leads to greater comprehension of the gospel, which continues to increase until the perfect day (Prov. 4:18; Eph. 4:13).
Click to expand...
The passage does not mention regeneration

and you yourself noted possession of the spirit

1 Cor. 2:10–13 —KJV
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

And you yourself wound in the same catch 22

Becoming a mormon would only lead to more error
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
Sketo said:
Nope! According to Calvinist a natural man is a man who is spiritually dead!
This is not the same as “without the” Spirit!


I can already see... You are going to confuse man’s spirit and God’s Spirit!

This will be your downfall in this thread...
Click to expand...
Are you claiming the spiritually dead man can have the spirit

I would not think so

so you are still stuck with your idea a man without the spirit cannot understand the gospel

so your claim effects nothing at all

as an added note nothing about being spiritually dead is even mentioned in the passage

You are still in a catch 22
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
Sketo said:
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 1 Corinthians 2:12

The “Spirit who is from God” is necessary in order to “understand the things freely given us by God”!
Click to expand...
So according to you a man without the spirit cannot understand the things of God not just things pertaining to divine revelation from the spirit but even the the revealed gospel as proclaimed by a prophet or apostle

So you are still stuck

You can't understand the gospel until you get the spirit and you can't get the spirit until you believe the gospel you cannot understand

Catch 22 lives on
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
The verse is a familiar one

1 Cor. 2:14 —KJV
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

According to Calvinist a natural man is a man without the spirit

This man cannot receive the things of God they are foolishness to him. He cannot even understand the gospel

Ok so what is needed according to Paul so one can receive knowledge from the Spirit

1 Cor. 2:11–13 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

One must have the spirit

Now if one must have the Spirit before one can understand the gospel

We have a huge problem

You cannot have the Spirit without faith in the gospel and Christ

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Gal. 3:13–14 —KJV
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

So we need the spirit to understand the gospel but we cannot have the spirit because we do not have faith in the gospel
Click to expand...
There's no problem. Those verses say nothing about regeneration. Another waste of time. Men were born of God during Jesus earthly ministry which technically was under the law. Jn 1:12-13
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
The passage does not mention regeneration

and you yourself noted possession of the spirit

1 Cor. 2:10–13 —KJV
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

And you yourself wound in the same catch 22

Becoming a mormon would only lead to more error
Click to expand...
Lol y'all make a good duo of confusion.
 
ReverendRV

ReverendRV

Well-known member
TomFL said:
The verse is a familiar one

1 Cor. 2:14 —KJV
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

According to Calvinist a natural man is a man without the spirit

This man cannot receive the things of God they are foolishness to him. He cannot even understand the gospel

Ok so what is needed according to Paul so one can receive knowledge from the Spirit

1 Cor. 2:11–13 —KJV
“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”

One must have the spirit

Now if one must have the Spirit before one can understand the gospel

We have a huge problem

You cannot have the Spirit without faith in the gospel and Christ

John 7:38–39 —KJV
“He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Gal. 3:13–14 —KJV
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

So we need the spirit to understand the gospel but we cannot have the spirit because we do not have faith in the gospel
Click to expand...
It's not a huge problem, because you and I agree that the Temporal Order has things happening simultaneously...

The Logical Order is a Jar and the Temporal Order is a Lid; screw the Lid onto the Jar and Pressure-Can the Strawberries; and you have Preserves. ~ I've been watching Preppers...

It's only a problem if you deny the existence of the Temporal Order. IE If you ask 'Which is more true, the Temporal Order or the Logical Order?'...
 
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T

TomFL

Well-known member
ReverendRV said:
It's not a huge problem, because you and I agree that the Temporal Order has things happening simultaneously...

The Logical Order is a Jar and the Temporal Order is a Lid; screw the Lid onto the Jar and Pressure-Can the Strawberries; and you have Preserves...

I've been watching Preppers. ~ It's only a problem is you deny the existence of the Temporal Order...
Click to expand...
I really do not see how anything you state relieves the problem

you will have to explain further
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
There's no problem. Those verses say nothing about regeneration. Another waste of time. Men were born of God during Jesus earthly ministry which technically was under the law. Jn 1:12-13
Click to expand...
Regeneration does not help you either

aside from the fact regeneration is never even spoken of in the passage
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
TomFL said:
That is not in 1Co 2:14
Click to expand...
1 Cor 2 14 tells us that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. All men are natural men in Adam before being born again. Paul said that we have bare the image of the natural 1 Cor 15 46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
 
T

TomFL

Well-known member
brightfame52 said:
1 Cor 2 14 tells us that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God. All men are natural men in Adam before being born again. Paul said that we have bare the image of the natural 1 Cor 15 46

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Click to expand...
Catch 22

You cannot receive the spirit or be regenerated without faith in the gospel
 
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