Catch 22 Calvinist style

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Yes

Sometimes you need to forget your theology

No one can have two masters. MANY choose to serve their creeds rather than a person. But they are really trying to serve themselves and their own personal desires - the doctrines they love. You either love you yourself and your doctrines and serve them or you serve Jesus Christ the word of God. No one can have two masters or he will love the one and hate the other.

It is easy to see what people really love. You will know them by their fruits.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sorry no you do not

One needs to receive Christ to be born again

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”
You just attempting to put scripture against scripture, proving nothing. the Natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness to him, the word of God is spiritually discerned and unfortunately the natural man is void of the Spirit of God.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You just attempting to put scripture against scripture, proving nothing. the Natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness to him, the word of God is spiritually discerned and unfortunately the natural man is void of the Spirit of God.
Can an unregenerate man understand "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You don't think that a natural person can understand "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"?
No I dont. Not Spiritually. The natural has no spiritual discernment and consequently cannot receive things of the Spirit of God

But unlike the Gospel, there is a natural revelation of creation Rom 1 men can know, but it has nothing to do with Salvation and the Gospel. Jesus came to give His Sheep a Spiritual knowledge of God and of Himself that natural creation doesnt do Jn 17: 3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Heb 8 11

11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

So I answered your question, take a snapshot of it.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
No I dont. Not Spiritually. The natural has no spiritual discernment and consequently cannot receive things of the Spirit of God

But unlike the Gospel, there is a natural revelation of creation Rom 1 men can know, but it has nothing to do with Salvation and the Gospel. Jesus came to give His Sheep a Spiritual knowledge of God and of Himself that natural creation doesnt do Jn 17: 3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Heb 8 11

11 and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

So I answered your question, take a snapshot of it.
ok. so everything in the Bible is only understood thru the Spirit.
If I understand there was a man named paul who had revelation about God and taught the church, that is not natural understanding, but I need to be regenerated to understand it?
Your answer seems wishy-washy. No they cannot understand/yes they can.
 
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brightfame52

Well-known member
ok. so everything in the Bible is only understood thru the Spirit.
If I understand there was a man named paul who had revelation about God and taught the church, that is not natural understanding, but I need to be regenerated to understand it?
Your answer seems wishy-washy. No they cannot understand/yes they can.
So I gave you my view !
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
So I gave you my view !
Yes, but you don't want it to be practical and logical. Just throw out vague ideas so that you do not need to discuss the concept in any meaningful way.
Again, if you are afraid to discuss idea from the Bible, that is something you have to work with
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes, but you don't want it to be practical and logical. Just throw out vague ideas so that you do not need to discuss the concept in any meaningful way.
Again, if you are afraid to discuss idea from the Bible, that is something you have to work with
I gave you my view, I discussed it then. I am finish with it, either accept or not
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You just attempting to put scripture against scripture, proving nothing. the Natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness to him, the word of God is spiritually discerned and unfortunately the natural man is void of the Spirit of God.
You still fail to address scripture which refutes you

One needs to receive Christ to be born again

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

as well as

John 20:31 (KJV 1900)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This clearly presupposes the gospel may be understood

2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV 1900)

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

presupposes Holy scriptures may be understood

1 Peter 1:21–25 (KJV 1900)

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Man is regenerated through faith in the Gospel

Isaiah 55:11 (KJV 1900)

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:

It shall not return unto me void,

But it shall accomplish that which I please,

And it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God’s word prospers in whatever it is set out to do

Psalm 19:7 (KJV 1900)

7 ………………………The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 119:130 (KJV 1900)

130 The entrance of thy words giveth light;

It giveth understanding unto the simple.

Self explanitory

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The word of God brings faith. It must be understood to do so
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That doesn't mention "born again".



That doesn't mention "born again".



That doesn't mention "born again".
Have you finally come to understand regeneration is about receiving new life

Here is another source for you Bible dictionaries

Theological Meaning.—The “new man” is the converted, regenerated man. The phrase has its significance for the great theological doctrine of regeneration as it expands into the broad work of sanctification. Is the sinner dead? Regeneration is a new life.[1] ISBE

Regeneration. Inner cleansing and renewal of the human nature by the Holy Spirit. Mankind’s spiritual condition is transformed from a disposition of sin to one of a new relationship with God (Ti 3:5). Regeneration involves both moral restoration and the reception of new life. The idea of regeneration is expressed as rebirth—being born again (Jn 3:3–7). This new birth suggests the newness of life in Christ.[2] Baker encyclopedia of the bible

Thus, regeneration is an act of God through the Holy Spirit, resulting in resurrection from sin to a new life in Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).[3] Nelson new illustrated bible dictionary

REGENERATION (Gk. paliggenesia, “a being born again”). The spiritual change wrought in man by the Holy Spirit, by which he becomes the possessor of a new life.[4]

New Unger bible dictionary

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.[5]

Pocket dictionary of Reformed tradition







[1] Robert Alexander Webb, “Man, New,” ed. James Orr et al., The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company, 1915), 1975.
[2] Walter A. Elwell and Barry J. Beitzel, “Regeneration,” Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988), 1830.
[3] Ronald F. Youngblood, F. F. Bruce, and R. K. Harrison, Thomas Nelson Publishers, eds., Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1995).
[4] Merrill Frederick Unger et al., The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988).
[5] Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition, The IVP Pocket Reference Series (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Have you finally come to understand regeneration is about receiving new life

Here is another source for you Bible dictionaries

Theological Meaning.—The “new man” is the converted, regenerated man. The phrase has its significance for the great theological doctrine of regeneration as it expands into the broad work of sanctification. Is the sinner dead? Regeneration is a new life.[1] ISBE

Regeneration. Inner cleansing and renewal of the human nature by the Holy Spirit. Mankind’s spiritual condition is transformed from a disposition of sin to one of a new relationship with God (Ti 3:5). Regeneration involves both moral restoration and the reception of new life. The idea of regeneration is expressed as rebirth—being born again (Jn 3:3–7). This new birth suggests the newness of life in Christ.[2] Baker encyclopedia of the bible

Thus, regeneration is an act of God through the Holy Spirit, resulting in resurrection from sin to a new life in Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 5:17).[3] Nelson new illustrated bible dictionary

REGENERATION (Gk. paliggenesia, “a being born again”). The spiritual change wrought in man by the Holy Spirit, by which he becomes the possessor of a new life.[4]

New Unger bible dictionary

regeneration. The manifestation of God’s *election, regeneration refers specifically to the new birth given by the Holy Spirit, bringing life to those who were spiritually dead.[5]

Pocket dictionary of Reformed tradition







[1] Robert Alexander Webb, “Man, New,” ed. James Orr et al., The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company, 1915), 1975.
[2] Walter A. Elwell and Barry J. Beitzel, “Regeneration,” Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988), 1830.
[3] Ronald F. Youngblood, F. F. Bruce, and R. K. Harrison, Thomas Nelson Publishers, eds., Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1995).
[4] Merrill Frederick Unger et al., The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988).
[5] Kelly M. Kapic and Wesley Vander Lugt, Pocket Dictionary of the Reformed Tradition, The IVP Pocket Reference Series (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic, 2013), 100–101.
Those definitions are fine but you shot yourself in the foot again. See none of them say that regeneration is the result of faith. In fact they all indicate it is by the Spirit. And it is by the Spirit before faith. It's the Sovereign Spirit giving life as Christ wills Him.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Those definitions are fine but you shot yourself in the foot again. See none of them say that regeneration is the result of faith. In fact they all indicate it is by the Spirit. And it is by the Spirit before faith. It's the Sovereign Spirit giving life as Christ wills Him.
You are a bit confused

There was no need for me to do so as scripture did

All that is needed was to define regeneration as new life , the passing from death to life etc

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You are a bit confused

There was no need for me to do so as scripture did

All that is needed was to define regeneration as new life , the passing from death to life etc

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
You always shoot yourself in the foot
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You are a bit confused

There was no need for me to do so as scripture did

All that is needed was to define regeneration as new life , the passing from death to life etc

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life
dup
 

TomFL

Well-known member
John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life

There are great implications in the biblical fact faith precedes regeneration for the Arminian-Calvinist debate
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You always shoot yourself in the foot
Actually you have been steam rolled

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life

faith precedes regeneration
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Actually you have been steam rolled

John 5:24 —ESV
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.”

John 5:40 —ESV
“yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.”

John 20:31 —ESV
“but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life

faith precedes regeneration
You have shot yourself in the foot more than anyone else I know.
 
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