Catch 22 Provisionist style

Sketo

Well-known member
Anyone can point to a verse where one receives/believes Christ and say see there they did receive/believe!

also
Anyone can point to a verse where one rejects/does not believe Christ and say see there they did reject/not believe!

And
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one receives/believes!

also
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one rejects/does not believe!

But... Can anyone biblically answer these instead of questions...

What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?

If you can not answer for the instead you can not prove it is the result of freedom!

Rules...
Answering with a beg-the-question answer does not count as an answer... it just begs the question and wastes time!

Example...
Because one “wanted to” receive/believe instead of reject/not believe!
This can not answer the question because it begs-the-question; Why did one “want to” willingly receive/believe instead of “want to” willingly reject/not believe?
This is a non-answer!

Also...
“Freewill” can not answer the question because it begs-the-question; Why did one “free” willingly receive/believe instead of “free” willingly reject/not believe?
This is a non-answer!

 
Last edited:

TomFL

Well-known member
Anyone can point to a verse where one receives/believes Christ and say see there they did receive/believe!

also
Anyone can point to a verse where one rejects/does not believe Christ and say see there they did reject/not believe!

And
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one receives/believes!

also
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one rejects/does not believe!

But... Can anyone biblically answer these instead of questions...

What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?

If you can not answer for the instead you can not prove it is the result of freedom!

Rules...
Answering with a beg-the-question answer does not count as an answer... it just begs the question and wastes time!

Example...
Because one “wanted to” receive/believe instead of reject/not believe!
This can not answer the question because it begs-the-question; Why did one “want to” willingly receive/believe instead of “want to” willingly reject/not believe?
This is a non-answer!

Also...
“Freewill” can not answer the question because it begs-the-question; Why did one “free” willingly receive/believe instead of “free” willingly reject/not believe?
This is a non-answer!

Free will does not depend on being able to answer why some believe and some don't. It may be proven in other ways

There are verses which show men have the ability to respond and believe

Deut. 30:11–20 —ESV
“¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””

Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing

Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things

Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””

Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth

2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time

Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”

The idea that men are born in a condition where they cant believe or respond to God is not found in the pages of the bible andcertainly is no where stated as a result of the fall

For 400 years the Father's taught men were born with a bias to sin, A sin nature
the certainly of physical death but with a residual ability to respond to God
 

Sketo

Well-known member
Free will does not depend on being able to answer why some believe and some don't.
Because it can’t as the OP explains. It is a non-answer!

It’s as pointless to answer the OP as a statement like “They wanted to because they wanted to”!
It may be proven in other ways
What? The premise of the OP?...
There are verses which show men have the ability to respond and believe
...And this completely bypasses, and overlooks, the premise of the OP!

I suspect intentionally!

For your convenience...
Next post...
 

Sketo

Well-known member
But... Can anyone biblically answer these instead of questions...

What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?

If you can not answer for the instead you can not prove it is the result of freedom!

 

TomFL

Well-known member
Because it can’t as the OP explains. It is a non-answer!

It’s as pointless to answer the OP as a statement like “They wanted to because they wanted to”!

What? The premise of the OP?...

...And this completely bypasses, and overlooks, the premise of the OP!

I suspect intentionally!

For your convenience...
Next post...
So where is the catch 22

You have not shown any

There are a number of verses given as why some did not believe Christ such as

They loved their evil deeds

They did not believe the father

They did not believe Abraham

They were calloused and hardened

They were being judicially hardened

There are none that say they born totally unable to understand or believe God and unable to respond to him in any positive manner being haters of God
 

Sketo

Well-known member
So where is the catch 22
You have not shown any
You are showing it now with your avoidance of the OP’s premise!
There are a number of verses given as why some did not believe Christ such as
Yes and the OP states anyone can do this...
Anyone can point to a verse where one receives/believes Christ and say see there they did receive/believe!

also
Anyone can point to a verse where one rejects/does not believe Christ and say see there they did reject/not believe!

And
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one receives/believes!

also
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one rejects/does not believe!

But...
and you display this...

They loved their evil deeds
Which begs-the-question...
What is the cause behind why one willingly “loved their evil deeds” instead of willingly hated their evil deeds???
What makes the difference?

They did not believe the father
What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?

They did not believe Abraham
What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?

They were calloused and hardened
What is the cause behind why one “calloused and hardened” instead of “receptive and softened”???

What makes the difference?

They were being judicially hardened
This is from God!
There are none that say they born totally unable to understand or believe God and unable to respond to him in any positive manner being haters of God
Then what makes the difference?

Hence the Provisionist catch 22!
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You are showing it now with your avoidance of the OP’s premise!

That is not a catch 22

and this was provided in answer to why some did noit believe


here are a number of verses given as why some did not believe Christ such as

They loved their evil deeds

They did not believe the father

They did not believe Abraham

They were calloused and hardened

They were being judicially hardened

There are none that say they born totally unable to understand or believe God and unable to respond to him in any positive manner being haters of God

I guess you did not find an answer you liked so you claim the was no answer



Yes and the OP states anyone can do this...

and you display this...


Which begs-the-question...
What is the cause behind why one willingly “loved their evil deeds” instead of willingly hated their evil deeds???
What makes the difference?


What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?


What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?


What is the cause behind why one “calloused and hardened” instead of “receptive and softened”???

What makes the difference?


This is from God!

Then what makes the difference?

Hence the Provisionist catch 22!


Sorry that is not a catch 22. apparently you never saw the movie

In any case you have just assumed your theology of unconditional election to salvation and reprobation

which is found no where in the bible as was noted above
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Anyone can point to a verse where one receives/believes Christ and say see there they did receive/believe!

also
Anyone can point to a verse where one rejects/does not believe Christ and say see there they did reject/not believe!

And
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one receives/believes!

also
Anyone can assume the reason behind why one rejects/does not believe!

But... Can anyone biblically answer these instead of questions...

What is the cause behind why one willingly receives/believes instead of willingly reject/does not believe???

What is the cause behind why one willingly rejects/does not believe instead of willingly receive/believe???

What makes the difference?

Whether you choose to love light or darkness.

An sick obese man with a bad heart KNOWS that if he keeps eating the cheesecake it could kill him. So when he goes to the fridge and sees the cheesecake, he begins to justify to himself why he should go ahead and eat it. And so he does. He isn't stupid; he knows it could kill him. So why then does he eat it? Because he decided to choose to believe his own lies. He didn't have to believe his own lies. But he did anyway because he wanted the cheesecake more than his own life.

Humans do this kind of thing all the time. Have you not noticed?


If you can not answer for the instead you can not prove it is the result of freedom!

Rules...
Answering with a beg-the-question answer does not count as an answer... it just begs the question and wastes time!

Example...
Because one “wanted to” receive/believe instead of reject/not believe!
This can not answer the question because it begs-the-question; Why did one “want to” willingly receive/believe instead of “want to” willingly reject/not believe?
This is a non-answer!

Also...
“Freewill” can not answer the question because it begs-the-question; Why did one “free” willingly receive/believe instead of “free” willingly reject/not believe?
This is a non-answer!

 

TomFL

Well-known member
Because it can’t as the OP explains. It is a non-answer!

It’s as pointless to answer the OP as a statement like “They wanted to because they wanted to”!

What? The premise of the OP?...

...And this completely bypasses, and overlooks, the premise of the OP!

I suspect intentionally!

For your convenience...
Next post...
So you are going to ignore scripture for philosophical speculation which is what it is as the bible never teaches your doctrine of unconditional election to salvation

Deut. 30:11–20 —ESV
“¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””

Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing

Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things

Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””

Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth

2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time

Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”

The idea that men are born in a condition where they cant believe or respond to God is not found in the pages of the bible and certainly is no where stated as a result of the fall

For 400 years the Father's taught men were born with a bias to sin, A sin nature
the certainly of physical death but with a residual ability to respond to God
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Free will does not depend on being able to answer why some believe and some don't. It may be proven in other ways


That is correct.

That people don't does not mean they can't.

There are verses which show men have the ability to respond and believe

Deut. 30:11–20 —ESV
“¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””

Does a blind man need a blindfold to stop him from seeing

Is it necessary to speak to men in parable so they would not understand if they were born unable to understand spiritual things

Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””

Is there and reason for the god of this world to blind anyone if they cannot se spiritual truth

2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

Rather we see men grow calloused, harden in time

Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”

The idea that men are born in a condition where they cant believe or respond to God is not found in the pages of the bible andcertainly is no where stated as a result of the fall

For 400 years the Father's taught men were born with a bias to sin, A sin nature
the certainly of physical death but with a residual ability to respond to God
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That is correct.

That people don't does not mean they can't.
Of course all the passages about God blinding men; hiding truth in parables, the god of this world blinding, warnings about hardening your heart when you hear God's word make no sense if man was incapacitated from understanding, believing and unable to respond positively to God's truth in any manner
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Of course all the passages about God blinding men; hiding truth in parables, the god of this world blinding, warnings about hardening your heart when you hear God's word make no sense if man was incapacitated from understanding, believing and unable to respond positively to God's truth in any manner
What you say needs to be thought out by Calvinists; you have a good point...

My answer is that the reason God incapacitates the Incapacitated, has nothing to do with a 'spark' of ability in the person but has everything to do with the 'Explosive' ability of the Gospel itself; it's dynamite to Stoney Hearts! It is the Power of God unto Salvation...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
What you say needs to be thought out by Calvinists; you have a good point...

My answer is that the reason God incapacitates the Incapacitated, has nothing to do with a 'spark' of ability in the person but has everything to do with the 'Explosive' ability of the Gospel itself; it's dynamite to Stoney Hearts! It is the Power of God unto Salvation...
Only problem is Calvinism holds unregenerated man cannot respond to the gospel. He cannot understand it

But i do agree there is power in the gospel

and it is a means God uses to grant faith and repentance
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Only problem is Calvinism holds unregenerated man cannot respond to the gospel. He cannot understand it

But i do agree there is power in the gospel

and it is a means God uses to grant faith and repentance
If the Gospel was not veiled, etc; it's effect would be Irresistible. This is a teaching from the Parable of the Sower...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If the Gospel was not veiled, etc; it's effect would be Irresistible. This is a teaching from the Parable of the Sower...
I don't know about irresistible but it is powerful

Heb. 4:12 —KJV
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
 
Top