Catholic meditation on the Passion of Christ - Liguori

[romishpopishorganist]

No, he is not. He wrote: "Catholics believe that we are saved by Christ alone through Grace alone. How does Christ save us through Grace? By associating our Faith and our works with Grace. It is Grace that saves----through Faith and works."

But Paul wrote "by grace through faith....and NOT by works." He did NOT write "through faith AND works."

Talk about rewriting SCripture!

Yes, Paul did write that.

James wrote that we are not saved by Faith alone. So Paul obviously choose to emphasize Faith, while James choose to focus on works. It is Faith and works. Not Faith "plus" works, not Faith "or" works, not Faith "opposed" to works, not works alone. Faith AND works.

Now, I get all of the exegetical dances Protestants do around James. "No, no" the Protestant says with a glean in their eye "You see, James isn't actually saying that works are saving. James, you see, is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith. Yeah------you see, a living Faith, a saving Faith will produce works. A dead Faith will not produce works. Put another way, James is saying that works 'vindicate' Faith."

And yes, I grant that is a plausible reading of James.

But equally plausible, from my view is the notion that Paul emphasizes Faith because the people he was writing to were obviously exaggerating the importance of works at the expense of Faith, while the people James was writing to, were quite obviously exaggerating Faith at the expense of works. So it is Faith and works, but both must be held in tension. No need for the overly complicated exegetical dance that Rube Goldberg would be proud of in this interpretation.

And by the way, Bonnie--aren't you Lutheran? Yes, I seem to remember your founder--wanting to "Throw old James into the fire" because "there is nothing of the Gospel in it." Yes--throw Scripture into the fire--because it contradicts what I am teaching. Great idea! Yes, that is your founder.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes, Paul did write that.

James wrote that we are not saved by Faith alone.

No, he did not. James talked about being justified. James isn't about faith vs. works, but a living faith vs. a dead faith. A living faith will always result in works of love towards others. A living faith saves--a dead faith cannot.

So Paul obviously choose to emphasize Faith, while James choose to focus on works. It is Faith and works. Not Faith "plus" works, not Faith "or" works, not Faith "opposed" to works, not works alone. Faith AND works.

They do NOT contradict each other. But Paul CLEARLY wrote "grace through faith....and NOT BY WORKS." He did NOT write "grace through faith and works"--did he? So, you are rewriting what Paul wrote.

Now, I get all of the exegetical dances Protestants do around James

Actually, we don't. We don't need to dance around him at all. But Catholics must do a LOT of tap-dancing to get around Eph. 2:8-10, Romans 4:5, and many other bible verses that say we are saved NOT by any works--whether good works or works of the Law--but ONLY by grace/faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.

. "No, no" the Protestant says with a glean in their eye "You see, James isn't actually saying that works are saving. James, you see, is contrasting a living Faith with a dead Faith.

That is EXACTLY what James is saying. Theo1689 did a very good analysis of James 2:24 here:

James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time | CARM Forums

Yeah------you see, a living Faith, a saving Faith will produce works. A dead Faith will not produce works. Put another way, James is saying that works 'vindicate' Faith."

Exactly, which is another meaning for justify--so is "proven."

And yes, I grant that is a plausible reading of James.

it is the ONLY reading for James, since the rest of the NT clearly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and not by any works on our part.

But equally plausible, from my view is the notion that Paul emphasizes Faith because the people he was writing to were obviously exaggerating the importance of works at the expense of Faith, while the people James was writing to, were quite obviously exaggerating Faith at the expense of works. So it is Faith and works, but both must be held in tension. No need for the overly complicated exegetical dance that Rube Goldberg would be proud of in this interpretation.

Paul emphasized grace/faith over works because he recognized that ONLY grace/faith in Jesus Christ saves us--not any works which we have done in righteousness. Which he emphasizes over and over again. But he also encouraged good works because they show love and are "profitable" for all men. But we do them BECAUSE we are save, not to GET saved. There is a difference.

And by the way, Bonnie--aren't you Lutheran? Yes, I seem to remember your founder--wanting to "Throw old James into the fire" because "there is nothing of the Gospel in it." Yes--throw Scripture into the fire--because it contradicts what I am teaching. Great idea! Yes, that is your founder.

Ah, the "Luther" card again; that old canard--that is always brought up on here when a Catholic poster knows his position is weak. No, there is very little of the Gospel in James and Gospel was EVERYTHING to Luther, unlike in Catholicism. But in the end, he did include it in his translation of the NT. But he was not inventing a new version of the canon, with his reluctance to include James. James was one of the "anti-legomena" books of the NT--ones "spoken against," since the earliest days of the church, along with 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation. But in the end, it was determined to be canon. It also is the oldest NT book, along with Galatians.

But Luther did call James the "blessed James" in WHAT LUTHER SAYS, on p. 721. He also wrote on the same page:

So, the works of faith do not make faith, ,but faith does the works of faith. In like manner the works of grace do not make grace; but grace does the works of grace."

So, Luther did not hate James, but recognized that a living faith produces the works of faith.

But Paul STILL did NOT write "by grace through faith AND works" but "grace through faith...and NOT by works."

 

[romishpopishorganist]

No, he did not. James talked about being justified. James isn't about faith vs. works, but a living faith vs. a dead faith. A living faith will always result in works of love towards others. A living faith saves--a dead faith cannot.


They do NOT contradict each other. But Paul CLEARLY wrote "grace through faith....and NOT BY WORKS." He did NOT write "grace through faith and works"--did he? So, you are rewriting what Paul wrote.


Actually, we don't. We don't need to dance around him at all. But Catholics must do a LOT of tap-dancing to get around Eph. 2:8-10, Romans 4:5, and many other bible verses that say we are saved NOT by any works--whether good works or works of the Law--but ONLY by grace/faith in Christ Jesus our Lord.


That is EXACTLY what James is saying. Theo1689 did a very good analysis of James 2:24 here:

James 2:24 - for the 50 millionth time | CARM Forums


Exactly, which is another meaning for justify--so is "proven."


it is the ONLY reading for James, since the rest of the NT clearly teaches that we are saved by grace through faith and not by any works on our part.


Paul emphasized grace/faith over works because he recognized that ONLY grace/faith in Jesus Christ saves us--not any works which we have done in righteousness. Which he emphasizes over and over again. But he also encouraged good works because they show love and are "profitable" for all men. But we do them BECAUSE we are save, not to GET saved. There is a difference.

Ah, the "Luther" card again; that old canard--that is always brought up on here when a Catholic poster knows his position is weak. No, there is very little of the Gospel in James and Gospel was EVERYTHING to Luther, unlike in Catholicism. But in the end, he did include it in his translation of the NT. But he was not inventing a new version of the canon, with his reluctance to include James. James was one of the "anti-legomena" books of the NT--ones "spoken against," since the earliest days of the church, along with 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation. But in the end, it was determined to be canon. It also is the oldest NT book, along with Galatians.

But Luther did call James the "blessed James" in WHAT LUTHER SAYS, on p. 721. He also wrote on the same page:



So, Luther did not hate James, but recognized that a living faith produces the works of faith.

But Paul STILL did NOT write "by grace through faith AND works" but "grace through faith...and NOT by works."

Yes, Bonnie, I get that you have to maintain this Protestant psychobabble and claptrap. You are a Lutheran. What else can you say? Obviously you are going to bring your Lutheran presuppositions of justification by Faith alone to your reading of the Bible. So yes, you have to maintain this--otherwise--what kind of Lutheran would you be?

But I do not share your Lutheran presuppositions for the reasons I have explained; reasons, which, I do not think you adequately answered or dealt with.

 

[LifeIn]

Tell THAT to this Catholic poster in post no. 84 in this link:

I read what he wrote and I did not see that he said anyone is saved by the works themselves.

If Catholicism teaches and believes we are saved only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, then why was Luther excommunicated for teaching and believing the same thing?

There were many other points of disagreement with Luther.

 

[pilgrim]

We agree. But those works do not save us; they are the result of a true faith, not the cause.

Ok.
The works give life to faith and make it "true faith".
That's why Jesus judges the nations in Matthew 25 by judging their works.

In James 2, Scripture says that faith and works act together:

22. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.

 

[Bonnie]

Yes, Bonnie, I get that you have to maintain this Protestant psychobabble and claptrap.

And you are Catholic and must maintain your Catholic stance--musn't you?
Since when is what the Bible says "psychobabble and claptrap"? Ephesians 2:8-9 is "psychobabble" and "claptrap"? How...distressing that you think so.

You are a Lutheran. What else can you say? Obviously you are going to bring your Lutheran presuppositions of justification by Faith alone to your reading of the Bible. So yes, you have to maintain this--otherwise--what kind of Lutheran would you be?

And you are a Catholic, so what else can YOU say?

I am first and foremost a Christian. And I am not bringing any "presupposition" when I read the Bible. I have seen many, many Bible verses that clearly teach that we are NOT saved by either works done in righteousness or works of the Law. I have even put down links to where I listed 55 such verses. Ephesians 2:8-9 are only 2 of many such verses. To believe otherwise would be to believe that what Jesus accomplished on the cross wasn't good enough, or complete enough--that Jesus somehow needs us to "do" something to help save ourselves. But if our works could help save us, then that would make us the savior of us, not Jesus--wouldn't it?

But Jesus cried from the cross, "It is finished!" And one of the meanings of the Greek word for "finished" is "paid in full". Which Jesus most definitely did. He paid fully for not only the guilt of our sins on the cross, but the eternal punishment for them.

But I do not share your Lutheran presuppositions for the reasons I have explained; reasons, which, I do not think you adequately answered or dealt with.

I dealt with them most adequately. Just because you don't like what I wrote doesn't mean that I what I wrote was "inadequate."

 

[Bonnie]

I read what he wrote and I did not see that he said anyone is saved by the works themselves.


There were many other points of disagreement with Luther.

But the doctrine of Justification was the most important.

And the poster still wrote "grace through faith and works." That is NOT what Paul wrote.

 

[Bonnie]

Ok.
The works give life to faith and make it "true faith".
That's why Jesus judges the nations in Matthew 25 by judging their works.

In James 2, Scripture says that faith and works act together:

22. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.

Which comes first? Faith? Or works?
And both Genesis 15 and Romans 4 say that Abe's faith was credited to him as righteousness--long before God told him to sacrifice Isaac.

Go to Hebrews 11 and kindly tell us BY WHAT the people did their great works, if you please.

 

[mica]

Since when is what the Bible says "psychobabble and claptrap"? Ephesians 2:8-9 is "psychobabble" and "claptrap"? How...distressing that you think so.
I am first and foremost a Christian. And I am not bringing any "presupposition" when I read the Bible. I have seen many, many Bible verses that clearly teach that we are NOT saved by either works done in righteousness or works of the Law. I have even put down links to where I listed 55 such verses. Ephesians 2:8-9 are only 2 of many such verses. To believe otherwise would be to believe that what Jesus accomplished on the cross wasn't good enough, or complete enough--that Jesus somehow needs us to "do" something to help save ourselves. But if our works could help save us, then that would make us the savior of us, not Jesus--wouldn't it?

But Jesus cried from the cross, "It is finished!" And one of the meanings of the Greek word for "finished" is "paid in full". Which Jesus most definitely did. He paid fully for not only the guilt of our sins on the cross, but the eternal punishment for them.

I dealt with them most adequately. Just because you don't like what I wrote doesn't mean that I what I wrote was "inadequate."

because it wasn't the catholic way (man's way). His way (God's way) is not the RCC way. His way (scripture) is to salvation, the RCC way (the ccc) is not the way to salvation.

 

[pilgrim]

Which comes first? Faith? Or works?
And both Genesis 15 and Romans 4 say that Abe's faith was credited to him as righteousness--long before God told him to sacrifice Isaac.

Go to Hebrews 11 and kindly tell us BY WHAT the people did their great works, if you please.

Is this like the chicken and the egg?
I don't know if one necessarily proceeds the other. When a child (or adult) is baptized (and I'm assuming this is the same in the Lutheran faith) they are instilled as gift from God with the theological virtues of faith, hope and love like a seed that, if planted in good soil and properly watered, with good formation in the faith will result in the desired fruit that God seeks in us.

So if faith and works ( which is charity/love) are working together, they must already be present to do so.

 

[mica]

Ok.
The works give life to faith and make it "true faith".
That's why Jesus judges the nations in Matthew 25 by judging their works.

In James 2, Scripture says that faith and works act together:

you have no works of Him unless you have that saving faith in Him. Faith comes first, works of Him are the result of that faith.

2. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.

yes, once again without that heart faith in Him, your 'works' are worthless.

works of Him are the result of faith in Him. without Him there are no works pleasing to Him.

 

[pilgrim]

you have no works of Him unless you have that saving faith in Him. Faith comes first, works of Him are the result of that faith.


yes, once again without that heart faith in Him, your 'works' are worthless.

works of Him are the result of faith in Him. without Him there are no works pleasing to Him.

Works cannot be the result of faith if works are necessary to complete faith.

 

[mica]

Works cannot be the result of faith if works are necessary to complete faith.

post the verse

 

[pilgrim]

post the verse

Post #105

 

[Bonnie]

Works cannot be the result of faith if works are necessary to complete faith.

Baloney. Go read Hebrews 11 and tell us, please, BY WHAT the people mentioned did their great works.

Hebrews also says that WITHOUT FAITH, it is impossible to please God.

 

[Bonnie]

Is this like the chicken and the egg?
I don't know if one necessarily proceeds the other. When a child (or adult) is baptized (and I'm assuming this is the same in the Lutheran faith) they are instilled as gift from God with the theological virtues of faith, hope and love like a seed that, if planted in good soil and properly watered, with good formation in the faith will result in the desired fruit that God seeks in us.

So if faith and works ( which is charity/love) are working together, they must already be present to do so.

It was just a simple question, which you did not answer--which comes first--faith or works?

 

[pilgrim]

Baloney. Go read Hebrews 11 and tell us, please, BY WHAT the people mentioned did their great works.

Hebrews also says that WITHOUT FAITH, it is impossible to please God.

Scripture has to agree with Scripture. Hebrews 11 has to agree with James 2. One must have faith and works to have a living, saving faith faith. One must have faith and works in order to produce the fruit that God seeks.

 

[balshan]

Yes, Bonnie, I get that you have to maintain this Protestant psychobabble and claptrap. You are a Lutheran. What else can you say? Obviously you are going to bring your Lutheran presuppositions of justification by Faith alone to your reading of the Bible. So yes, you have to maintain this--otherwise--what kind of Lutheran would you be?

But I do not share your Lutheran presuppositions for the reasons I have explained; reasons, which, I do not think you adequately answered or dealt with.

Bonnie does not post psychobabble and claptrap at all. She is a believer and posts the truth. You just post RCC Psychobabble and claptrap. Obviously, you bring your RCC presuppositions to your reading of the Bible. So yes you have to maintain these false teachings otherwise what sort of RC would you be.

Bonnie did answer and dealt with your reasons which are inadequate because they are tainted with your RCC presuppositions.

So your post did not in any way support your false beliefs on justification.

 

[balshan]

Scripture has to agree with Scripture. Hebrews 11 has to agree with James 2. One must have faith and works to have a living, saving faith faith. One must have faith and works in order to produce the fruit that God seeks.

That is not what James says at all. James is clear if one is a believer and has faith, then, that person behaviour will change. You cannot earn salvation by works, that is very clear in scripture. People do good works before they are saved, these people will never be saved unless they follow Jesus. Then their motivation for doing their works will change and then those works will become acceptable to God.

 

[pilgrim]

That is not what James says at all. James is clear if one is a believer and has faith, then, that person behaviour will change. You cannot earn salvation by works, that is very clear in scripture. People do good works before they are saved, these people will never be saved unless they follow Jesus. Then their motivation for doing their works will change and then those works will become acceptable to God.

This is what James says:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.