LifeIn
Well-known member
They come at the same time.You STILL did not answer my simple question! Which comes first--faith or works?
They come at the same time.You STILL did not answer my simple question! Which comes first--faith or works?
Oh, really? You mean, if a person comes to faith in Christ Jesus, God suddenly zaps good works into that person?They come at the same time.
That's not the Catholic view. The Catholic view is that God makes the gift of faith available to all who chose to accept it. Not all accept this gift. But those that do accept this gift, by the nature of that acceptance, would begin doing good works. I gather that the view of some others here is that personal choice plays no part whatsoever in this process, and it is more like a lottery where God picks the winning numbers and if your number happened to be picked, you will have faith. If not, then you will not have faith.Oh, really? You mean, if a person comes to faith in Christ Jesus, God suddenly zaps good works into that person?
Perhaps we should distinguish between the resolution to do good and the actual carrying out of a good work. In the case described here, the realization that the man should no longer pollute the water must have occurred to him almost immediately upon accepting Jesus. But if that man had died shortly after accepting Jesus but before being able to carry out his intention of fixing the pollution, what about his salvation? In that rare case I think we can say that he was saved by faith alone, even though he had done no works because he didn't have the opportunity to follow through. I think we can also say that having faith in Jesus caused the good works, and not the other way around. This is all consistent with Catholic theology. The only thing that is not consistent with Catholic theology is the belief that God does not offer all mankind the choice of accepting his way to salvation.My husband told this story in one of his sermons....there was a man who owned a factory that polluted a river. The folks living downstream didn't like it one bit. They tried to get the owner to clean up his factory so it would no longer pollute the river. But nothing worked. They tried legal means, but his lawyers found loopholes. The people told him God didn't like him polluting the river. The owner didn't care.
Then one day, the factory owner heard the Gospel message of Jesus Christ--and believed. The very next day, he shut down his factory and had changes made to make sure the factory would no longer pollute the river.
Now...which came first? The man's faith or his good work of making sure his factory no longer polluted the river?
The personal choice to accept God or not, do you call that "lottery" as well? If not, why do you characterize the sovereign election of God as lottery?I gather that the view of some others here is that personal choice plays no part whatsoever in this process, and it is more like a lottery where God picks the winning numbers and if your number happened to be picked, you will have faith. If not, then you will not have faith.
The essence of lottery is that person holding the ticket has no choice is how the numbers are drawn. So, no, we would not call it a lottery if people do have the personal choice to accept Jesus and his way.The personal choice to accept God or not, do you call that "lottery" as well?
...because it is more like a lottery in that personal choice plays no role (according to some here). It that your view too? That free will plays no part in one coming to faith? Then you are believing in a lottery.If not, why do you characterize the sovereign election of God as lottery?
Ah, yes, the age old debate between the Nominalists and the moderate realists. The age old debate about the one vs. the many and how many can yet be one and one can yet be many! If there is but one sacrifice of Christ, how can Catholics celebrate Mass? Aren't there many Masses but only one sacrifice of Christ? That must mean----Catholics are re-sacrificing Christ day in and day out.
And the Protestant reformers, God bless them, were heavily influenced by Nominalism. Given that, it is no wonder they see the Catholic Mass as thousands of new sacrifices each day, no wonder they see the Mass as somehow an affront to the Cross. It is no wonder they ask how Christ can be present on thousands of hosts on thousands of altars simultaneously without being divided.
What Christ finished was his earthy work; not the work of redemption. There was more to do after the Cross--you know--resurrect, ascend, send the Holy Spirit and so forth. Then came the preaching and teaching of the Apostles that established communities.
Ushering in the Kingdom of God, establishing the rein of God on earth, going about the work of the Father, preaching, teaching, making God known and visible, founding a Church, healing people, forgiving sin, are all things Christ did in his earthy work. The things listed are not all inclusive.
And our redemption is not just a transaction whereby a debt is paid. It is far more than that.
The Passover Seder meal was finished.Is it the belief and teaching of the RCC that Christ's only finished work was His "earthly" work and not His work of "redemption"? If so, then why were the dying words of Jesus Christ "It is finished"?
That's not the Catholic view. The Catholic view is that God makes the gift of faith available to all who chose to accept it.
Not all accept this gift. But those that do accept this gift, by the nature of that acceptance, would begin doing good works. I gather that the view of some others here is that personal choice plays no part whatsoever in this process, and it is more like a lottery where God picks the winning numbers and if your number happened to be picked, you will have faith. If not, then you will not have faith.
Although it is not possible to have faith without works, it is possible to have works without faith. In that case, the works are still good in their effect on other people, but they do not bring faith or salvation. We can see examples of this by some atheists who are also significant philanthropists. But being a philanthropist does not make one saved.
Perhaps we should distinguish between the resolution to do good and the actual carrying out of a good work. In the case described here, the realization that the man should no longer pollute the water must have occurred to him almost immediately upon accepting Jesus. But if that man had died shortly after accepting Jesus but before being able to carry out his intention of fixing the pollution, what about his salvation?
But this still does NOT answer my very simple question: which comes first? Faith or works?In that rare case I think we can say that he was saved by faith alone, even though he had done no works because he didn't have the opportunity to follow through. I think we can also say that having faith in Jesus caused the good works, and not the other way around. This is all consistent with Catholic theology. The only thing that is not consistent with Catholic theology is the belief that God does not offer all mankind the choice of accepting his way to salvation.
Ok, but if Christ decides who He will save without faith or works and who He will not save, then what was the point of the Great Commission?
GOD knows everything that will take place into the infinite future. This includes everyone that will accept/reject the finished work of Jesus on cross. However,God foreknows all that will ever happen. God changes the heart which results in the rebirth.
of course it isn't. that's the major problem w/catholicism. catholics believe what the RCC teaches them, not what God teaches. Believers do believe God's word, not that of man.That's not the Catholic view. The Catholic view is that God makes the gift of faith available to all who chose to accept it.
yes, a believer would begin to do that ... AFTER they are saved.Not all accept this gift. But those that do accept this gift, by the nature of that acceptance, would begin doing good works.
this has been discussed on here over and over again. It isn't a lottery or even close to one. God knows all - past, present and future. He knows who will believe in Him and who won't - from the beginning of time until the end of it.I gather that the view of some others here is that personal choice plays no part whatsoever in this process, and it is more like a lottery where God picks the winning numbers and if your number happened to be picked, you will have faith. If not, then you will not have faith.
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Really? Jesus waited until His last moments on the cross to say 'great meal, check please'? I think His statement goes a little bit deeper than that.The Passover Seder meal was finished.
Really? Deeper? go for itReally? Jesus waited until His last moments on the cross to say 'great meal, check please'? I think His statement goes a little bit deeper than that.
The essence of lottery is also that a random process contributes to the outcome. God acting according to His salvific will can hardly be characterized as such.The essence of lottery is that person holding the ticket has no choice is how the numbers are drawn.
But God's election is His personal choice. Not every situation where you do not have the final say is analogous to a lottery.So, no, we would not call it a lottery if people do have the personal choice to accept Jesus and his way.
no believer really wants to dive deeper into the confused false beliefs of catholicism.Really? Deeper? go for it
so you have nothing to top it... carry onno believer really wants to dive deeper into the confused false beliefs of catholicism.
Of course it was finished! It was finished the night before! Do you really think that is what Jesus was talking about? OR are you trying to say that Jesus was saying the need to observe the Passover Seder meal was "finished"? I am just asking for clarification here.The Passover Seder meal was finished.
If you are asking for clarification, you wouldn't say 'Of course it was finished!" [night before]Of course it was finished! It was finished the night before! Do you really think that is what Jesus was talking about? OR are you trying to say that Jesus was saying the need to observe the Passover Seder meal was "finished"? I am just asking for clarification here.
Randomness is a human concept to describe actions for which we have no foreknowledge or control. God knows the future, including the number for the next Power Ball drawing. To God, nothing is random, including lotteries. So describing your concept of salvation as a lottery is still relevant.The essence of lottery is also that a random process contributes to the outcome. God acting according to His salvific will can hardly be characterized as such.
"Final say?" Those are not my words. But if we have no choice at all in our destiny, it might as well be a lottery for us.But God's election is His personal choice. Not every situation where you do not have the final say is analogous to a lottery.
No your beliefs are false why would they top anything at all. I am interested to know and started a post is Father Risdale laicized yet.so you have nothing to top it... carry on
?No your beliefs are false why would they top anything at all. I am interested to know and started a post is Father Risdale laicized yet.