Catholics praying the Psalms

If David writes in the 23rd Psalm the "I shall surely live in the house of the Lord forever" he is expressing his own personal confidence that God will treat him like that. It is not God telling us that He will treat David that way

Yes.

We have already heard your argument that the God inspired David to record a lie in Scripture.

As a Catholic, you are compelled to make such wicked accusations against God and David. It is the Catholic way. It is Catholic second nature.

As always, when you Catholics pray that Psalm, just skip verse 6 because it does not apply to Catholics. We will take your word on that.
 
And John tells us that we can know we are saved. Catholics have to ignore a lot of Scripture to continue believing their sectarian leaders.

David knew. The Apostles knew.

Catholics, OTOH, admit they do not have the same faith that these men passed on. I agree with Catholics on that.

But Catholics confessing they do not know is not the worst of it. It gets worse when these same Catholics accuse our Lord and such men as David and the Apostles of lying....because these Catholics would rather believe their Masters.
 
David knew. The Apostles knew.

Catholics, OTOH, admit they do not have the same faith that these men passed on. I agree with Catholics on that.

But Catholics confessing they do not know is not the worst of it. It gets worse when these same Catholics accuse our Lord and such men as David and the Apostles of lying....because these Catholics would rather believe their Masters.
It is so sad that RCs do not trust Jesus and His words. They constantly harp on David being a sinner, Peter denying Jesus etc. They do not focus on how these men changed and grew. This is the problem with following men as the RCC does.
 
David was expressing his feelings in the Psalm. He was not laying down doctrine. That's what comes of treating every book of the bible exactly the same. They are not all of the same genre. Psalms are inspirational songs.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching (G1321 ~ διδάσκω - did-as'-ko - instill doctrine into one) and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Col 3:16)
 
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching (G1321 ~ διδάσκω - did-as'-ko - instill doctrine into one) and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (Col 3:16)
Just because you found the word "teaching" and the word "psalms" in the same verse does not mean that every word of the book of Psalms defines doctrine. They are songs and poetry with a variety of uses. Some were for liturgical use in the temple. Some were for individual recitation for expressions of thanksgiving or supplication. They do teach, but indirectly, whereas thinks like Paul's letters to the various Christian communities teach more directly, as do the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The 23rd Psalm does not teach that anyone who says they know they are saved are in fact saved. In fact the 23rd Psalm does not mention the salvation of anyone besides David.
 
Just because you found the word "teaching" and the word "psalms" in the same verse does not mean that every word of the book of Psalms defines doctrine. They are songs and poetry with a variety of uses. Some were for liturgical use in the temple. Some were for individual recitation for expressions of thanksgiving or supplication. They do teach, but indirectly, whereas thinks like Paul's letters to the various Christian communities teach more directly, as do the Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The 23rd Psalm does not teach that anyone who says they know they are saved are in fact saved. In fact the 23rd Psalm does not mention the salvation of anyone besides David.

You are bound and determined to prove Scripture wrong, so you can say you are right and to establish your own self righteousness above God's righteousness. Oh yes, this is exactly what you are conveying to anyone who is reading this thread.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,


The Jewish people consider the Psalms as inspired writing of God, just as they consider the books of Moses and the writings of prophets under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to be God breathed. All of Scripture is the very knowledge of God. Including the NT. King David, was not just a king over the nation of Israel, but a prophet and David prophesied much about who Jesus would be and His purpose in coming all throughout the book of Psalm.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”


I and others have posted multiple of verses over and over, which tell us how we are saved. Your own RC catechism says Scripture is God speaking to us in a way we humans can understand and yet here you are, refusing to believe God and submit to HIS righteousness.

Romans 10:5-11
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
 
You are bound and determined to prove Scripture wrong, so you can say you are right and to establish your own self righteousness above God's righteousness. Oh yes, this is exactly what you are conveying to anyone who is reading this thread.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
That still does not support the notion that Psalm 23 proves you are sure you are saved. At most it proves that David had confidence that he was saved. I don't need to deny the scripture is God-breathed to say that.


The Jewish people consider the Psalms as inspired writing of God, just as they consider the books of Moses and the writings of prophets under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to be God breathed. All of Scripture is the very knowledge of God. Including the NT. King David, was not just a king over the nation of Israel, but a prophet and David prophesied much about who Jesus would be and His purpose in coming all throughout the book of Psalm.
But the 23rd Psalm still does not say YOU are saved.

I and others have posted multiple of verses over and over, which tell us how we are saved. Your own RC catechism says Scripture is God speaking to us in a way we humans can understand and yet here you are, refusing to believe God and submit to HIS righteousness.
Nope. I believe in Scripture at least as much as you do, and in HIS righteousness. But we are now getting away from the 23rd Psalm, aren't we?

Romans 10:5-11
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
Seeing as how the 23rd Psalm does not prove what you want, now you are turning to other Scriptures.
 
That still does not support the notion that Psalm 23 proves you are sure you are saved.

The poster you quoted and addressed did not say anything about Psalm 23. The poster quoted Colossians 3:16 to show that ALL of Scripture is for teaching. Not just a couple of verses, but the entire Bible. But the statement by you in the quote above is in fact casting doubt on the word of God.

Seeing as how the 23rd Psalm does not prove what you want, now you are turning to other Scriptures.

Neither the poster in post # 24 or myself, is the thread starter.

The promise of salvation and eternal life did not begin with David in Psalm 23, it was promised the day Adam sinned. Psalm 23:6 is a reiteration of that promise. The promise was reiterated all through out the OT prior to David's lifetime. ALL of Scripture is God breathed and God speaking. The Holy Spirit was speaking through David, reminding us of God's promise.

The book of Psalm was NOT David's private diary for his ears and eyes only! David ministered to the nation of Israel through the Psalms. They were preached and sung publicly. God revealed Himself, through ALL of Scripture.

As for turning to other Scriptures.... YOU won't even believe the direct words that came out of Jesus' mouth when He walked this earth. If you did, you would not be having a hissy fit over the posting of other Scriptures that point out what David was saying through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The point the opster made is that RC's do not believe that salvation and eternal life is for them or anyone else and your reply to me just proves his point. The verse below fit the RCC to a capital T.

Matthew 23:13
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.

Oh yes, the above fits like a glove. Telling people it isn't possible to receive eternal life is indeed calling God a liar. Because Jesus, Himself said verbatim the following,

John 3:15
so that anyone who believes in me will have eternal life.
 
The poster you quoted and addressed did not say anything about Psalm 23. The poster quoted Colossians 3:16 to show that ALL of Scripture is for teaching.
It seemed to me that the implication was that if ALL of Scripture is for teaching, then in particular, Psalm 23 is for teaching, since that was the point that was being debated. I do not dispute that all of Scripture is useful for teaching, but for teaching what? That is the question. The thing the OP was trying to conclude from that Psalm is not the teaching of that Psalm.


The book of Psalm was NOT David's private diary for his ears and eyes only! David ministered to the nation of Israel through the Psalms. They were preached and sung publicly.
Sung...yes. Preached...no. You don't preach Psalms. You sing them - either communally or individually - to aide in prayer to God.


YOU won't even believe the direct words that came out of Jesus' mouth when He walked this earth. If you did, you would not be having a hissy fit over the posting of other Scriptures that point out what David was saying through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
1. That's bearing false witness against me. 2. One clarification of my reasoning is no "having a hissy fit".


The point the opster made is that RC's do not believe that salvation and eternal life is for them or anyone else and your reply to me just proves his point.
Does not. It is a false point. It does not look like you know how to prove anything.




The verse below fit the RCC to a capital T.

Matthew 23:13
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter.


Oh yes, the above fits like a glove. Telling people it isn't possible to receive eternal life is indeed calling God a liar. Because Jesus, Himself said verbatim the following,

John 3:15
so that anyone who believes in me will have eternal life.
 
As for turning to other Scriptures.... YOU won't even believe the direct words that came out of Jesus' mouth when He walked this earth. If you did, you would not be having a hissy fit over the posting of other Scriptures that point out what David was saying through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
That's bearing false witness against me.

You tell me I'm bearing false witness. Please explain why you told me the following after I posted about the day someone shared the gospel message with me right from the Bible itself. Point out to us non-Rc's how the gospel message as preached by the apostles is flawed. The gospel message needs no interpretation. It is self explanatory.


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I do not dispute that all of Scripture is useful for teaching, but for teaching what? That is the question.

Psalm uses the metaphor a shepherd caring for his sheep to illustrate the love that God has for them.

Your very aware of what is being taught in Scripture. The word "them" is a plural pronoun used to refer to a group of people, animals, or things. Your trying to say that since the Psalm does not verbatimly say.... "all believers will dwell in the house of the Lord" that Psalm 23 can only apply to David. The Psalm implies more people than just David is cared for and loved by God.

And therefore, Psalm 23 is assuring us of eternal life and we who believe God at His word, will indeed, dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Don't worry. When you Catholics are praying this Psalm, you can just skip verse 6 because your confession is that it does not apply to you.

David had more hope than Roman Catholics.

I agree with the above statement
 
LifeIn wrote: "The Psalm uses the metaphor of a shepherd caring for his sheep to illustrate the love that God has for them."

Your very aware of what is being taught in Scripture. The word "them" is a plural pronoun used to refer to a group of people, animals, or things. Your trying to say that since the Psalm does not verbatimly say.... "all believers will dwell in the house of the Lord" that Psalm 23 can only apply to David. The Psalm implies more people than just David is cared for and loved by God.
Since we do not seem to agree on what it means to be a believer in Christ, your idea of who will dwell in the house of the Lord forever may not be he same as mine, even though we both affirm the words "all believers will dwell in the house of the Lord". However when it comes to identifying specific people who will so dwell, the 23rd Psalm only speaks of David's confidence that the Lord has blessed him so. It does not mention you, nor does it say what conditions you would need to pass in order to be blessed in the same way David was saying he was blessed. You see Catholics believe that we will be judged according to our deeds, and you seem to believe that our judgement has already taken place before we were born when God decided who would have faith and who would not, despite the fact that such a belief is not Scriptural. You say that we will be saved if we believe in His word, and that's fine. But then you go and ruin it by saying that it is impossible to believe in His word unless God had decided before you were born that you would have faith, so the decision to have faith is not really a decision that is up to us. However it is Scriptural to say that we will be judged according to our deeds because it is our deeds that show our faith.
 
Since we do not seem to agree on what it means to be a believer in Christ

You say...right here and now...that no one can know if they are a believer in Christ and thus you don't even know if you believe in Him.

We believe you, I suppose.

Of course, that stands in opposition to the testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself on the subject, so no wonder you would not agree with Christ followers. Since you are wracked with unbelief and do not even know if you believe in Jesus as God commands, you think everyone else is just as disobedient. That is you projecting.


, your idea of who will dwell in the house of the Lord forever may not be he same as mine

God tells us: all who put their trust in Him.

It is simple, yet Catholics scratch their heads not knowing who will inherit eternal life.


However when it comes to identifying specific people who will so dwell, the 23rd Psalm only speaks of David's confidence that the Lord has blessed him so.

David knew....Catholics do not know....yet David was under an inferior covenant.

That is how poorly Catholics handle the great gift of the new covenant.

It does not mention you, nor does it say what conditions you would need to pass in order to be blessed in the same way David was saying he was blessed.

We all already know the conditions....as God told us repeatedly.

Again, Catholics scratch their heads and have no clue.

However it is Scriptural to say that we will be judged according to our deeds because it is our deeds that show our faith.

Everyone is judged according to their works.

No one is saved according to their works.

No matter how good you think you are, and how deserving you think you are, God will never be as impressed with you as yourself.
 
You say...right here and now...that no one can know if they are a believer in Christ and thus you don't even know if you believe in Him.
You are still playing with the ambiguity of what it means to be a believer. So I know if I am a believer according to my definition of a believer right now, but I suspect your idea of a believer is a not tied about a point in time.

Of course, that stands in opposition to the testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself on the subject
No, it doesn't.

God tells us: all who put their trust in Him.
That is just exchanging one ambiguous term for another ambiguous term.

David knew...
David believed.

We all already know the conditions....as God told us repeatedly.
We know the condition. It is to die in the state of sanctifying grace, which is when you have no unrepented mortal sins.

Everyone is judged according to their works.

No one is saved according to their works.
I used the word "deeds", not "works". And it does not make sense to say that we are judged according to our works without saying what the judgement is for. You just said it was not for salvation. If God's judgement is not for determining who is saved, then what is His judgement for?

No matter how good you think you are, and how deserving you think you are, God will never be as impressed with you as yourself.
You have no idea how impressed or not impressed I am of myself. I've said nothing either way.
 
You say...right here and now...that no one can know if they are a believer in Christ and thus you don't even know if you believe in Him.
You are still playing with the ambiguity of what it means to be a believer.

There is no ambiguity. You are the only one confused here....and that is why you are not even sure if you believe in Jesus Christ.

Christ followers are sure they believe in Christ, as that is what God commanded of them. Catholics just don't want to obey.


So I know if I am a believer

Jesus said all who believe in Him will never die and will live forever.

"Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die"

Are you guaranteed you will never die (spiritually) or do you now not believe in Him again?


Of course, that stands in opposition to the testimony of the Holy Spirit Himself on the subject
No, it doesn't.

I just proved it. There are more.


God tells us: all who put their trust in Him.
That is just exchanging one ambiguous term for another ambiguous term.

That is you just projecting again.

Just because Catholics do not know what it means to put their trust in the Savior ("ambiguous"), you think Christ followers are just as confused.

David knew...
David believed.

David did not say "Surely....I believe"

David said "Surely...I will"

No Catholic can say that. Only God's people who trust in Him and believe in Him can say that. When Catholics get to that verse, they cannot pray that part of the Psalm.

You reject what David said and your argument that he lied to us in Scripture is not only wickedly slanderous, but also is blasphemous to think the Holy Spirit inspired David to lie.


We all already know the conditions....as God told us repeatedly.
We know the condition.

"nor does it say what conditions you would need to pass"

From post to post, you trip all over yourself, not knowing which position to take.


It is to die in the state of sanctifying grace, which is when you have no unrepented mortal sins.

One thing Scripture nowhere says and the Apostles nowhere taught.

It is funny that you deny what Scripture DOES say, and then believe things it DOES NOT say.

Everyone is judged according to their works.

No one is saved according to their works.
I used the word "deeds", not "works".

Deeds are works.

You are desperately flailing now.


If God's judgement is not for determining who is saved, then what is His judgement for?

For the lost, it is for their condemnation.
For the saved, it is for their rewards.

No matter how good you think you are, and how deserving you think you are, God will never be as impressed with you as yourself.
You have no idea how impressed or not impressed I am of myself. I've said nothing either way.

All those who argue salvation by works think they are good enough to deserve it.

Otherwise, they would despair.
 
There is no ambiguity. You are the only one confused here...
I am not confused. I just understand that your understanding of a believer is not the same as mine. So when you use the term it does not mean the same thing as what it does when I use it. That is why it is ambiguous in a conversation between us.

Jesus said all who believe in Him will never die and will live forever.
And we believe that totally.

David did not say "Surely....I believe"

David said "Surely...I will"
That is how a belief is expressed in a song. It is poetic, and he is speaking only about himself.

...your argument that he lied to us in Scripture is not only wickedly slanderous, but also is blasphemous to think the Holy Spirit inspired David to lie.
Obviously not.

Deeds are works.
The term "works" is normally followed by "of the law" - a reference to all the Jewish laws and statutes. So when Paul says we are not saved by works he means these works of following the letter of the Jewish Law, including the Ten Commandments and plus all the man-made laws of Judaism. But with the coming of Christ, the fulfillment of the Laws, we have salvation in him by his law of love. And we prove our love for him by deeds of love, which are very different from works of the law, both in content and in motivation. In works of the Law, the motivation is self-serving, even if it is our own salvation. In deeds of love, the motivation is the love itself - not self-interest. That is why in the parable of the sheep and the goats, both the sheep and the goats were unaware of the deeds that they either did or did not do that the Lord says they did or did not do for him, even though it was those deeds that explain why they are being invited (or not invited) to the eternal life with Him. So when I say we will be judged by our deeds, it is these selfless deeds of love I am referring to, which are very different from self-serving works of the Law performed for the sole purpose of our own personal salvation.

All those who argue salvation by works think they are good enough to deserve it.
1. I am not arguing salvation by works.
2. I fully understand I am not good enough to deserve it. (No one is.)
3. I put my trust in Jesus for everything. If he thinks I should be condemned, then that is as it should be.
 
The Psalms are an example of Scriptures that are meant to be taken more metaphorical than literal. In particular, this Psalm uses the metaphor a shepherd caring for his sheep to illustrate the love that God has for them. This is obvious by the fact that no qualifier is mentioned, like the ones on Paul's letters, for "living in the house of the Lord" that would make anyone think it applied to anyone other than David.
Translation: "Neither the the Bible, nor the Roman Catholic religious system gives a person ANY ASSURANCE OF SALVATION"
 
Translation: "Neither the the Bible, nor the Roman Catholic religious system gives a person ANY ASSURANCE OF SALVATION"
No person should can rightly be assured of their unconditional salvation, for in thinking that deeds did not matter, they would think they could indulge themselves immoral pleasures of the flesh for the rest of their life and still be assured of a glorious eternal reward. That would be an abomination.
 
No person should can rightly be assured of their unconditional salvation
TOTALLY FALSE!!! Rom 8:16 teaches the TRUTH the the HOLY SPIRIT bears witness with OUR spirit that we're God's Children!!!

Bottom line: IF YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'RE BORN AGAIN / SAVED, then YOU'RE NOT.

Belief "hopes", but FAITH KNOWS!!!
 
No person should can rightly be assured of their unconditional salvation,

Yes we can, because Jesus who is God in the flesh said, Verbatim

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.…

John 3:18
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 5:24
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I tell you,
he who believes has eternal life.
 
TOTALLY FALSE!!! Rom 8:16 teaches the TRUTH the the HOLY SPIRIT bears witness with OUR spirit that we're God's Children!!!
Romans 8:16 does not mention you by name, does it?

Bottom line: IF YOU DON'T KNOW YOU'RE BORN AGAIN / SAVED, then YOU'RE NOT.
That claim is not found anywhere in Scripture. And it is contradicted by the parable of the sheep and the goats, because the sheep were saved, but were quite surprised that they were saved, as they had to ask the Lord "when did we see you and attend to you?"


Belief "hopes", but FAITH KNOWS!!!
Faith is belief + trust. It is not "sure knowledge".
 
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