Catholics praying the Psalms

[Atemi]

You believe you are guaranteed eternal life?

You left off the qualifier that I included.

You did not include any qualifier. You said you totally agreed with what I quoted.

He did not say "I believe." He said "I will"...

Nevertheless David was expressing how he felt.

Again...

David did not say "Surely...I feel"
David did not say "Surely...I believe"

He said "Surely...I will"

You simply do not believe David or the Holy Spirit.

1. No. There is no such normality.
2. There is no deed a Christian can do that is not covered under the Mosaic Law already.

Yes, if the Mosaic Law is broadly interpreted

Nope. The most surface interpretation.

Jesus Himself said so: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

That is the Law. Christ Himself taught that.

What good deeds can you do that are not covered under the Law?

No sinners are saved by works.
Definitely not Christ's sheep.

You missed the point I was making about that parable, which is those who were saved were not fully aware of the fact.

They never said any such thing.

So David says something explicit....and you refuse to believe him. But Christ's sheep in Matt 25 do not say any such thing....so you pretend they did.

I see where this is going.

You have already been corrected on your multiple errors with that text....where you have no clue who are Christ's sheep, you don't know who Christ's brothers are, and you don't know who Christ resides in.

You continue to deny the lesson of that parable

Considering you don't know who Christ's sheep are, who Christ's brothers are, or who Christ resides within....that is rich!

, which was all about those deeds.

You ignore those deeds. Catholics ignore those deeds.

Again: how many times must a Catholic go visit some random convict at the local penitentiary in order to be saved?

You won't answer because you know the answer: ZERO.

So which others of those deeds can be ignored by Catholics and they still can be saved? You don't know that either....because you are making it up at this point.

You put your "trust" in Jesus to condemn you to Hell if you are not "good" enough?
LOL. You think that is the Gospel?

The message of the Gospel is that the way to heaven which had be closed for all is now open, thanks to what Christ did on the cross.

So He does not actually SAVE anyone in your religion? He just opens doors so you can earn Heaven by doing good "deeds"?

But if I do not take up my cross and follow him, I will rightly be condemned for it and will not see heaven.

And you think taking up one's cross means doing good deeds?

Who is teaching you this nonsense?

 

[Atemi]

Nowhere is it taught that following Jesus is intrinsic for those who really really really believe they are born again of the Holy Spirit and a real Christian.

Bob did not speak of those who "really really really believe they are born again."
Bod spoke of those who ARE born again.

 

[LifeIn]

Bob did not speak of those who "really really really believe they are born again."
Bod spoke of those who ARE born again.

How could he tell the difference?

 

[LifeIn]

You did not include any qualifier. You said you totally agreed with what I quoted.

Yes, and what you quoted had a qualifier in it. I will point it out to you:

Atemi: "Jesus said all who believe in Him will never die and will live forever."

The underlined part is the qualifier. But when you rephrased it an applied it to me without a qualifier you said: "You believe you are guaranteed eternal life?"

And just like I said, the qualifier is missing. Now one might wonder why I didn't go along and assume that I qualified like you do. The answer is that to me, the phrase "all who believe in Him" carries more weight that simply a profession, or statement, of a creed or belief. To believe in Jesus is to follow him, do what he asks of us, take up our cross and follow him. I am trying to do that now, but I would not presume to claim that it is now impossible for the devil to tempt me away from Christ and to make me stop following Jesus. I am reminded of the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The Pharisee is the one that is so sure of his position with the Lord, while the tax collector does not even presume to raise his eyes to heaven and just says "Have mercy on me, a sinner", and certainly doesn't lay claim to being "born from above" or "the elect" or "saved" or anything like that. Although not approving of his sins, Jesus clearly preferred the attitude of the tax collector toward God. The tax collector did not presume that he qualified for eternal life, and neither will I.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If you call following Jesus and doing what he asks "salvation by works", then you do not understand Eph 2:8,9.

If you think that "DOING ANYTHING" contributes to your "Salvation", the you're the one who has no clue what Eph 2:8,9 means.

Nowhere is it taught that following Jesus is intrinsic for those who really really really believe they are born again of the Holy Spirit and a real Christian.

"Belief", since it has no "substance", and isn't an "Evidence" of anything had nothing to do with being born again. FAITH is what gets 'er done. James goes into what FAITH will produce in a Born Again Christian.

If you think Hebrews 11:1 says Faith is knowledge then you do not understand Hebrews 11:1.

Except that I never SAID ANYTHING of the sort. Heb 11:1 starts off: "FAITH IS" and never mentions "Knowledge" at all..

 

[A new day]

You were doing fine, up until the last sentence, which does not follow from all the excellent and true stuff you wrote before it. Believing in Jesus means much more than believing that He has purchased salvation by his death on the cross, and that you will have life eternal. Belief in Jesus also means doing the will of God. That is a difficult condition, as the rich young man discovered who asked Jesus what must he do to attain eternal life. Jesus said "..go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Jesus also gave conditions for discipleship when he said "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me". This is also what it means to believe in Jesus, who also said "your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father." Anyone who thinks that believing in Jesus is just believing that Jesus saves and you will be saved will hear from him at the end of time "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." Notice all the highlighted verbs in Jesus' instructions on what it takes to be one of his own. So whenever you hear the phrase "believe in Jesus", remember that it means all of these things too.

Jesus is saying that the person accepts (believes) that HE has purchased , eternal life for us, by his death on the cross, that we will indeed have eternal life... NOT maybe... but WILL

You twist and turn at the thought of surrendering all to Christ and relying upon Him exclusively. You would rather say you deserve heaven because you worked hard at getting there by your own strength, will, and power instead of completely relying upon Jesus.

None of the apostles when preaching the gospel went around telling people to do good works and be pious to receive eternal life. Not one apostle ever preached that.

Instead they preached “believe in the name of Jesus”. No where is it even hinted in Scripture that Jesus' death on the cross was so that you could save yourself.

 

[LifeIn]

If you think that "DOING ANYTHING" contributes to your "Salvation", the you're the one who has no clue what Eph 2:8,9 means.

I know what that Eph 2:8-9 is used as a proof-text for sola fide by ignoring the context and the rest Scripture, such as 1 Peter 3:21 which says that baptism saves you, and James 2:24 that says a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Therefore this question cannot be answered by looking only at a few Scriptures but by considering ALL the relevant Scriptures.

As you accuse Catholics of believing in salvation through works, know that since the Council of Trent, the idea that a person could earn salvation by works was condemned as a heresy and that has remained Catholic doctrine ever since.

So how does the Church reconcile this nuanced question? We recognize that Eph 2:8-9 speaks of salvation in the past tense ( "have been saved" ) to refer to the initial justification that occurs upon conversion to the faith. This is by grace and not as the result of any works, as the text says. One does not need to do anything to become a convert. Once a person does become a convert, he is called to live the life of Christian - to follow where Christ leads, to do what he asks. This is continuing salvation and often involves testing by various trials. The final stage of the journey is the final justification, which takes place on the Last Day - the final judgement. We can find Scripture passages to support each of those stages of salvation. We do not need to focus on just the first stage as if that is all there is, because then we would have to ignore a large part of Scripture. But seeing it this way, we do not have to ignore any of it. I trust you know Scripture well enough that I do not need to look up and cite the passages that support this view.

Except that I never SAID ANYTHING of the sort. Heb 11:1 starts off: "FAITH IS" and never mentions "Knowledge" at all..

That's my point. I was responding to the claim that one can know here and now that they will be saved on the day of judgement.

 

[LifeIn]

None of the apostles when preaching the gospel went around telling people to do good works and be pious to receive eternal life. Not one apostle ever preached that.

What about James 2:24 ?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

As you accuse Catholics of believing in salvation through works, know that since the Council of Trent, the idea that a person could earn salvation by works was condemned as a heresy and that has remained Catholic doctrine ever since.

So why do Roman Catholics practice it so commonly???

I was responding to the claim that one can know here and now that they will be saved on the day of judgement.

And since A person who actually HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN, has the ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE by FAITH that they're perfect before God, YOUR (your denomination's) claim that you CAN"T KNOW FOR SURE is simply discarded.

 

[LifeIn]

So why do Roman Catholics practice it so commonly???

No, that is just the narrative the some Protestants like to spin.

And since A person who actually HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN, has the ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE by FAITH that they're perfect before God, YOUR (your denomination's) claim that you CAN"T KNOW FOR SURE is simply discarded.

That catch there is that it is just as impractical to know you are born again as it is to know that you are perfect before God. Saying that you "know" you are any of those equivalent terms is the same as saying you know any other one of them. It is circular reasoning. Since you can't actually demonstrate any of those equivalent terms, there is no beginning to this proof - only a hypothetical ending.

 

[A new day]

You so much want your religious works and display of self-righteousness, to be your ticket to heaven. When a person is born again, there is a change in the person's speech and actions that can be witnessed by other humans.

James is speaking of a witness of changed hearts and minds, that is evidence of a saving faith. A change can be seen in a person that before being born again, now produces love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

The world at large could care less for these things or what God thinks of their actions and lives. But when they believe the gospel message as preached by the apostles in Scripture, and put their complete trust and confidence in Jesus as Lord and Savior, their lives change. A life that does not change in a dead and empty faith.

People who truly believe in Christ do NOT put on a deceitful display of intellectual assent. They are people who look to Christ, depend on Him, commit themselves to Him, trust in Him, and believe on Him for righteousness, salvation, and eternal life. These are the ones who will enter into the kingdom of heaven. Such people know that they DO indeed have eternal life. They never have to worry or wonder.

Swallowing wafer after wafer does nothing to change a person's heart and mind, they only make the person proud and arrogant of what they think they have gained as an edge over others.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No, that is just the narrative the some Protestants like to spin.

Spoken in response to the false ROMAN CATHOLIC claim that their Laity CAN'T HAVE ANY ASURANCE of their own salvation. YOU claim that, I Don't.

That catch there is that it is just as impractical to know you are born again as it is to know that you are perfect before God.

TOTALLY FALSE. there's NOTHING "Impractical" about knowing that you're a Child of God. Your "Catch" is meaningless.

Saying that you "know" you are any of those equivalent terms is the same as saying you know any other one of them. It is circular reasoning. Since you can't actually demonstrate any of those equivalent terms, there is no beginning to this proof - only a hypothetical ending.

Pure GARBAGE!!! A Born again Christian is indwelled by the HOLY SPIRIT, who bears witness with the Christian's spirit that they're children of God. The BIBLE SAYS SO, and that settles it. IF YOU HAVE NO ASSURANCE of YOUR "saved status" before God through Biblical FAITH (Heb 11:1) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, then the likelihood is that you're not a Born Again Christian at all, just a "Catholic", and you should really look into that.

 

[LifeIn]

Spoken in response to the false ROMAN CATHOLIC claim that their Laity CAN'T HAVE ANY ASURANCE of their own salvation. YOU claim that, I Don't.

This has nothing to do with what you quoted from me, which was "No, that [the idea that Catholics believe one can earn salvation by works] is just a narrative some Protestants like to spin about Catholics - even though the belief has never been a Catholic teaching". Would you like to try again and respond with something relevant to this? Or just ignore it. That would be OK too.

TOTALLY FALSE. there's NOTHING "Impractical" about knowing that you're a Child of God.

I say "impractical" because there is no practical test for knowing that someone is saved - at least none that you have admitted to - because I suspect that the only verified test would be something involving works, which I'm sure you do not want to use for a test since you said it has nothing to do with salvation, even though James says it does.

 

[A new day]

Ya know, you've been trying to paint the idea that a person can't possibly continue on in trusting God in spite of unpleasant circumstances. This is the same crap satan told God about Job. Job's trust in God remained in spite of all the obstacles satan threw at him. Scripture NEVER tells us that we would life a life without trouble or hardships, but through them all, God would remain faithful in HIS promises to us, even when we break our promises to Him.

God is faithful when we face temptations, He always provides a way out from under them. A well as give us comfort in times of sadness and heartache. A person who doubts about God, is a person who has never truly known Him on a personal and intimate level.

 

[A new day]

I say "impractical" because there is no practical test for knowing that someone is saved

We know we are saved, because God tells us we are saved. Why won't you believe Him? God chose a simple way to heaven, but RC's have to make it difficult and complicated

 

[LifeIn]

We know we are saved, because God tells us we are saved.

We've been over this before. God did not mention you by name, did He? It is just your assumption that He was talking to you when that was written in the Scripture.

Why won't you believe Him?

I believe what He DID say, not what I imagined he said.

God chose a simple way to heaven, but RC's have to make it difficult

A way to heaven with doing any works? Even though James said that is not how it works? Why do don't you believe what the Holy Spirit inspired James to write in James 2:24?

 

[balshan]

We can trust God but not the RCC. The leaders have shown by their fruit they cannot be trusted.

Psalm 9:10

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.

ps 31:14+

But I trust in you, O Lord; I say, “You are my God.” My times are in your hand; rescue me from the hand of my enemies and from my persecutors!

mark 5:36

But overhearing what they said, Jesus said to the ruler of the synagogue, “Do not fear, only believe.”

pS 28:7

The Lord is my strength and my shield; in him my heart trusts, and I am helped; my heart exults, and with my song I give thanks to him.

pS 112 :7

He is not afraid of bad news; his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.

Another approx 100 verses about His word on our hearts and minds.

Hebrew 8:10

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Cor 3:3

And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Rom 2:15

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

So we have God writing on our minds and hearts, we have His hard copy of His word and we have a conscience. Nothing about false RC teachings, we can trust God and if we can trust God we can trust His word.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This has nothing to do with what you quoted from me, which was "No, that [the idea that Catholics believe one can earn salvation by works] is just a narrative some Protestants like to spin about Catholics - even though the belief has never been a Catholic teaching".

But we both know that Catholics don't have any assurance of their salvation, and like YOU they try to earn it with their works (or their loved one's MONEY when they have to be bought out of Purgatory (Yeah I know you "don't do that", except that you do - just ask Don Bosco).

I say "impractical" because there is no practical test for knowing that someone is saved - at least none that you have admitted to

Why would I be concerned if SOMEBODY ELSE is "saved". I'm the one that needs the ASSURANCE, and I've HAD IT for 60 years now. I won't need it much longer.

Whether YOU, or anybody else, think I'm "Saved", isn't my problem. I know the Bible, and the ASSURANCE that's in it. And I simply testify of what I know to be true, and the Holy Spirit can take it from there. You can "Eat Whole" whatever fantasy Rome feeds you if you want.

 

[balshan]

We've been over this before. God did not mention you by name, did He? It is just your assumption that He was talking to you when that was written in the Scripture.


I believe what He DID say, not what I imagined he said.


A way to heaven with doing any works? Even though James said that is not how it works? Why do don't you believe what the Holy Spirit inspired James to write in James 2:24?

Rcs have to throw doubt on the assurance God has given to others, because they have no assurance. They have no assurance because they do not follow Jesus or believe God's word. They make up myths and fairytales to follow. They have to jump throught the RCC hoops and still do not have assurance.

James is clear we know those who are saved by their works. This shows God has changed them and no stage does James ever hint at one needs works to be saved, that is just RC imagination at work.

Yep the fruits of the RC leaders throughout the centuries shows clearly who they follow and it is not Jesus.

 

[LifeIn]

Why would I be concerned if SOMEBODY ELSE is "saved".

Because to me, you are somebody else. And that somebody else is trying to convince me that he is saved. But it looks like you are admitting there is no objective standard by which one can know if they are saved. All the standards you have referred to (being born from above) are no more objective.

Whether YOU, or anybody else, think I'm "Saved", isn't my problem.

OK, then stop trying to convince me that you are saved, or can know you are saved.

I know the Bible, and the ASSURANCE that's in it.

Your assurance rests on more than the Bible, for the Bible always states salvation in along with an implicit or explicit qualifier, and your assurance depends on you qualifying. By the way, I've mentioned James 2:24 about four times so far and no one (except for balshan just now) has attempted to respond to it. That's telling for someone who purportedly accepts ALL the Bible, not just part of it.