Catholics praying the Psalms

James is clear we know those who are saved by their works. This shows God has changed them and no stage does James ever hint at one needs works to be saved, that is just RC imagination at work.
Are we talking about the same James 2:24? Let's look at the exact words together:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

It literally says that a person is justified by works. Of course works all by themselves does not save anyone either. It takes both.
 
Are we talking about the same James 2:24? Let's look at the exact words together:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

It literally says that a person is justified by works. Of course works all by themselves does not save anyone either. It takes both.
Yep faith is seen, and it shows in works. So were they righteousness before faith? So good works save?
 
Just read the words of James 2:24: "A person is justified by works". It can't get any clearer than that.
Yep I read it and I read in with other scriptures to make sure the meaning is clear. You failed to answer my questions. I mean James was the book a lot of people didn't want in scripture because they felt it was too Jewish. I believe James is constantly showing that once saved by faith we are changed, if we are not then changed then it was all talk. The RCC is all talk and the actions show that it is not what it claims to be.

Romans 4 is very clear, righteousness is given to those of faith.

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”


Eph 2:8+

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Gal 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

James 2 comes after James 1.

James 1

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

James places a high value on faith, it is the source of perseverance and the ability to stay strong.

Again James 2:14 shows it is faith that changes us:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

James is really showing how to discern if you and others are saved. You are changed. If you do not do right, then you did not have faith.

RCs like to misuse that one verse of James because they think it backs up the fact that they can earn salvation, it doesn't. Scripture is to read as a whole, James is a complete book and needs to be read as a whole to understand that line.

Misusing James does not justify your false works based salvation at all. It is good that you are finally showing your real RC character in this posts.

James is discerning whether a person has faith in James 2:

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

In other words, faith first and once saved you are changed, it can be seen by actions. The actions of works is continuous and it is God who gives us what we need. They are His works in us, not ours that saves.
 
You did not include any qualifier. You said you totally agreed with what I quoted.
Yes, and what you quoted had a qualifier in it. I will point it out to you:

Atemi: "Jesus said all who believe in Him will never die and will live forever."

The underlined part is the qualifier.

You said you believe in Him.

Are you now changing your mind...yet again?


And just like I said, the qualifier is missing.

So you don't believe in Jesus?


To believe in Jesus is to follow him, do what he asks of us

You don't do what He asks of us.

That is why we need to believe in Him.

The entire reason we have a Savior is because we refuse to do what He asks of us.


I am trying to do that now

So you don't believe in Him like He commands (which is ironic because you said you must do what He asks of us to believe in Him).

Why not give up "trying" to believe in Him and just obey what He commanded that you obey Him?


The tax collector did not presume that he qualified for eternal life

Sinners who are honest do not believe they can do and deeds to qualify for eternal life.

Christ followers understand that it is the Lord that qualifies. He does not call the qualified. He qualifies the called.
 
It literally says that a person is justified by works.

Not before God.

There you go again with your salvation by works false doctrine.

Of course works all by themselves does not save anyone either. It takes both.

No. Your sect teaches that people with NO faith in Jesus Christ can be saved....as long as they merit eternal life with their works.

Even atheists can be "saved" if they are "good people." I was taught this by the RCC myself.

Only works are necessary. Faith is only a bonus.
 
OK, then stop trying to convince me that you are saved, or can know you are saved.
O.K. stay in doubt if that's what you want. You obviously either don't KNOW, or don't CARE what the Bible says, but when you die and find yourself in "Purgatory", it'll be ugly when you realize it's actually HELL, and you won't be getting out.
Your assurance rests on more than the Bible.
Sure HIS HOLY SPIRIT bears witness to my human spirit, that I'm HIS CHILD.
for the Bible always states salvation in along with an implicit or explicit qualifier, and your assurance depends on you qualifying. By the way, I've mentioned James 2:24 about four times so far and no one (except for balshan just now) has attempted to respond to it. That's telling for someone who purportedly accepts ALL the Bible, not just part of it.
No problem with James IN CONTEXT (which "works salvation folks" always skip over).

James is a book in which the CONTEXT deals with WHETHER the "Faith" you claim to have is REALLY FAITH, or just "Religious rhetoric".

It's clear from Eph 2:8,9 that WORKS have no value in salvation, and it FAITH that gets 'er done.

James goes into the "Intrinsic nature of FAITH" in that it will invariably RESULT in "Works". Philip Melancthon (1497-1560) put it: "it is FAITH ALONE that saves, But the FAITH THAT SAVES will never be "alone".
 
We know the condition. It is to die in the state of sanctifying grace, which is when you have no unrepented mortal sins.
What your Roman Catholic Catechism teaches by this is that the person must have sanctifying grace in his soul. This. says the RCC unites a person to Jesus and gives him a participation in the divine life of God. According to the RomanCatholic Catechism, to obtain sanctifying grace and preserve it in one's sopul, a RomanCatholic must accomplish a list of ten requirements:

* believing

* being baptized

* being a loyal member of the Church

* loving God

* loving his neighbor

*keeping the 10 Commandments

*receiving the sacraments, especially Holy Communion

*praying

* doing good works

*dying in a state of grace

Wow! Take note that in Roman Catholicism, that being a loyal member of the "Church", being baptized, and believing, are all higher in precedence than Almighty God.!
 
Romans 4 is very clear, righteousness is given to those of faith....
Eph 2:8+ ......
Titus 3:5
Gal 2:16

These verses do indeed show that salvation is through faith. This in indisputable. Just as James 2:24 and other verses shows that a person is saved by works. We both recognize that Scripture cannot ever contradict itself. Therefore we must understand ALL these Scriptures in a way that is not contradictory. Clearly there is some relationship between faith and works. Protestants say that faith changes a person so that he does works. You are more qualified to speak on that in greater detail, so I won't presume to lecture on what Protestants believe. But I will try to explain how Catholics reconcile these ideas with James 2:24 without denying any Scriptures. It starts with the Catholic concept of justification, which may be a little different from the Protestant concept of justification and righteousness.

According to the Council of Trent, God doesn’t simply declare us righteous. He also makes us righteous in justification. Thus the Council of Trent defined justification as “not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inner man.” But he’s not done with us. He wants us to grow in righteousness over the course of the Christian life, and, if we cooperate with his grace, we will. In Catholic language, justification isn’t something that happens just at the beginning of the Christian life. It happens over the course of the Christian life.

After discussing the justification that occurs at the beginning of the Christian life, Trent quotes several passages from St. Paul on how Christians grow in virtue by yielding our bodies to righteousness for sanctification. It states that by good works we “increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified.” Because we see justification as a life-long process rather than a "once and done" event, we understand James 2:24 as referring to the endpoint of this life-long process and it takes good works to get there. But it all starts with faith. On that we both agree. But we disagree, I think, on the timing of salvation. Because we see justification as a process that demands our cooperation, we do not believe that once someone starts on this process, that one can never get off track. We do not believe that salvation is assured at the very beginning of the process when one first converts. We believe that faith will be tested throughout life, and that some will fail and some will persevere. We do not believe that the faith of one who has just started on that journey is necessarily strong enough to pass the most severe of tests. We see that happening with the 11 Apostles who did not betray Jesus. At the beginning of Jesus' ministry when they first joined him, they had immature faith. It was sincere faith. They were very sincere, but also weak, and occasionally faltered. If we compare those Apostles with how they were after Pentecost, it is almost like night and day. Their faith was tried in fire and passed. In the process of their spiritual progress they actively cooperated with the promptings of the Holy Spirit. We see that active cooperation with the Holy Spirit as the "works" that James 2:24 is talking about. Again, it all starts with faith. But the process of salvation does not end there. It is a process, not a one-time event. It is not complete unless we respond.

Another point of disagreement is our ability to refuse to respond. We believe that option is always on the table. No matter how far anyone is on their path to salvation, they can always opt out and forfeit salvation. But from what I hear from some in this forum is that once on the path to salvation, we are so very much changed that we loose our human ability to get off that road entirely. In other words, our will is taken over by the will of God. Now I know there are Scripture verses that speak of surrendering our will to the will of God, but that is not the same thing. When someone surrenders their will to the will of God (a very good thing to do, by the way) that person is expressing his desire at that time. Just like salvation, this surrendering of one's will is also a process that one must decide each to to renew. We never actually loose our own will. What we do is each day recommit ourselves to God's will. The more we do it the easier it gets, and the less likely it is that we would get lost. But it is always possible. And that is why we do not claim that our progress is done and that our specific salvation is assured.

So you see that all these concepts we have been discussing - faith vs. works, knowing one is saved, free will - are all interconnected.
 
James 1

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

James places a high value on faith, it is the source of perseverance and the ability to stay strong.

That verse says it is the testing of your faith (not just the faith itself) and produces perseverance. This also ties into the process idea because testing of faith is something that happens at unexpected times, and you never know when the testing is over.

Again James 2:14 shows it is faith that changes us:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?

Umm, it says nothing about faith changing a person. Faith does change a person. That much we know from other verses. But not from this one. This one simply says that faith without deeds does not save.

Misusing James does not justify your false works based salvation at all. It is good that you are finally showing your real RC character in this posts.

If we used James to justify works based salvation, that would indeed be a misuse. But the Catholic Church, despite what you may have heard, DOES NOT believe in works based salvation. That heresy was declared by the Council of Trent about 500 years ago. Read again what I wrote above about salvation being a process that requires our cooperation, and that it all starts with faith.
 
These verses do indeed show that salvation is through faith. This in indisputable. Just as James 2:24 and other verses shows that a person is saved by works. We both recognize that Scripture cannot ever contradict itself. Therefore we must understand ALL these Scriptures in a way that is not contradictory. Clearly there is some relationship between faith and works. Protestants say that faith changes a person so that he does works. You are more qualified to speak on that in greater detail, so I won't presume to lecture on what Protestants believe. But I will try to explain how Catholics reconcile these ideas with James 2:24 without denying any Scriptures. It starts with the Catholic concept of justification, which may be a little different from the Protestant concept of justification and righteousness.

According to the Council of Trent, God doesn’t simply declare us righteous. He also makes us righteous in justification. Thus the Council of Trent defined justification as “not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inner man.” But he’s not done with us. He wants us to grow in righteousness over the course of the Christian life, and, if we cooperate with his grace, we will. In Catholic language, justification isn’t something that happens just at the beginning of the Christian life. It happens over the course of the Christian life.

After discussing the justification that occurs at the beginning of the Christian life, Trent quotes several passages from St. Paul on how Christians grow in virtue by yielding our bodies to righteousness for sanctification. It states that by good works we “increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified.” Because we see justification as a life-long process rather than a "once and done" event, we understand James 2:24 as referring to the endpoint of this life-long process and it takes good works to get there. But it all starts with faith. On that we both agree. But we disagree, I think, on the timing of salvation. Because we see justification as a process that demands our cooperation, we do not believe that once someone starts on this process, that one can never get off track. We do not believe that salvation is assured at the very beginning of the process when one first converts. We believe that faith will be tested throughout life, and that some will fail and some will persevere. We do not believe that the faith of one who has just started on that journey is necessarily strong enough to pass the most severe of tests. We see that happening with the 11 Apostles who did not betray Jesus. At the beginning of Jesus' ministry when they first joined him, they had immature faith. It was sincere faith. They were very sincere, but also weak, and occasionally faltered. If we compare those Apostles with how they were after Pentecost, it is almost like night and day. Their faith was tried in fire and passed. In the process of their spiritual progress they actively cooperated with the promptings of the Holy Spirit. We see that active cooperation with the Holy Spirit as the "works" that James 2:24 is talking about. Again, it all starts with faith. But the process of salvation does not end there. It is a process, not a one-time event. It is not complete unless we respond.

Another point of disagreement is our ability to refuse to respond. We believe that option is always on the table. No matter how far anyone is on their path to salvation, they can always opt out and forfeit salvation. But from what I hear from some in this forum is that once on the path to salvation, we are so very much changed that we loose our human ability to get off that road entirely. In other words, our will is taken over by the will of God. Now I know there are Scripture verses that speak of surrendering our will to the will of God, but that is not the same thing. When someone surrenders their will to the will of God (a very good thing to do, by the way) that person is expressing his desire at that time. Just like salvation, this surrendering of one's will is also a process that one must decide each to to renew. We never actually loose our own will. What we do is each day recommit ourselves to God's will. The more we do it the easier it gets, and the less likely it is that we would get lost. But it is always possible. And that is why we do not claim that our progress is done and that our specific salvation is assured.

So you see that all these concepts we have been discussing - faith vs. works, knowing one is saved, free will - are all interconnected.
No there are so many verses which show faith and not works. Faith and not works. James is being misused by the RCC and you have not supplied other verses but I have supplied many which shows it is faith and our righteousness is nothing at all to God.
 
That verse says it is the testing of your faith (not just the faith itself) and produces perseverance. This also ties into the process idea because testing of faith is something that happens at unexpected times, and you never know when the testing is over.



Umm, it says nothing about faith changing a person. Faith does change a person. That much we know from other verses. But not from this one. This one simply says that faith without deeds does not save.



If we used James to justify works based salvation, that would indeed be a misuse. But the Catholic Church, despite what you may have heard, DOES NOT believe in works based salvation. That heresy was declared by the Council of Trent about 500 years ago. Read again what I wrote above about salvation being a process that requires our cooperation, and that it all starts with faith.
No it shows that it is faith and not works. So you don't think true faith changes you. Really.

The RCC taught saved by works when I went to RC schools. I mean even baptism is needed for RCs for salvation and that is considered a work. I am not wasting my time at all, you are inconsistent and it is blah, blah. It is not our co operation that is needed. God draws us.

CHANGE
2 Cor 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Phil 1:6

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

DRAWN BY GOD

John 6:44

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
 
No problem with James IN CONTEXT (which "works salvation folks" always skip over).
It is interesting how you insist James must be read IN CONTEXT of the rest of the book, but when discussing Eph 2:8-9 you focus only on the the words in those verses and don't like to read it IN CONTEXT of the rest of that book.

James is a book in which the CONTEXT deals with WHETHER the "Faith" you claim to have is REALLY FAITH, or just "Religious rhetoric".

It's clear from Eph 2:8,9 that WORKS have no value in salvation, and it FAITH that gets 'er done.

James goes into the "Intrinsic nature of FAITH" in that it will invariably RESULT in "Works".
That conclusion can easily be reached by redefining faith as something that is only known after the fact - that is, verify by works. But the way faith is talked about here, it is something that can be know before the fact - before any works are done. That leads to mistake notion that man can know whether or not his faith will be verified before it is actually verified. We do not know our own personal futures. Only God knows that. Claiming to know anyone's personal future is divination and should be condemned.
 
The RCC preaches a different Jesus and a different gospel message than the one preached in Scripture


Biblical JesusRoman Catholic Jesus

He Lives Forever and Provides
Eternal Life
Complete Forgiveness
Permanent Right Standing with God
Peace and Assurance​
Conditional Life
Partial Forgiveness
Residual Sin Remains
Continuous Striving to Gain God's Acceptance
Uncertainty, Fear, Doubt, and a False Hope​

I would much rather have the Biblical Jesus, than the one the RCC portrays.

God is self existant, that is.... that He was NEVER created, He has always existed eternally and will always exist. God did not depend upon anything outside Himself for His existence, nor will He ever depend upon anyone or anything for it. God does not owe His being to any other person or thing. All things were created by Him and for His glory.

This is why Scripture is supreme over everything else, because it is the very words of God. God does NOT change, neither does His written words.
 
We do not know our own personal futures. Only God knows that.
Which means IN PRACTICAL TERMS, that IN SPITE OF GOD'S PROMISES, Roman Catholics are TRAINED to believe that they can have NO ASSURANCE of their own salvation, and even the ones who ARE SAVED, have to go to an IMAGINARY place of torment to get "purified" before they're "pure enough" for Heaven.

NOT a "Religious system" that I'd want anything to do with don'cha know!!!
 
Which means IN PRACTICAL TERMS, that IN SPITE OF GOD'S PROMISES, Roman Catholics are TRAINED to believe that they can have NO ASSURANCE of their own salvation, and even the ones who ARE SAVED, have to go to an IMAGINARY place of torment to get "purified" before they're "pure enough" for Heaven.
Excellent job at totally ignoring most of what I wrote and misrepresenting the rest. If you think that such a ploy will hide the fact that you don't have a rational response, prepare to be disappointed, because it is too obvious.
 
Excellent job at totally ignoring most of what I wrote and misrepresenting the rest. If you think that such a ploy will hide the fact that you don't have a rational response, prepare to be disappointed, because it is too obvious.

Actually Bob was direct and to the point. He didn't need to white wash or make his meaning more palpable to your RC tastes. What you want is everyone to take note and obey the voice of a "religious system". Instead of standing in faith on God's promises to us humans.

We've been over this before. God did not mention you by name, did He? It is just your assumption that He was talking to you

Your all about Jesus talking to YOU specifically and your religious system, when it comes to putting Him down in your belly, but that suddenly changes when it comes to requiring YOU trusting in Him.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Matthew 7:21-23 (do not confuse these passages with the passages in Matthew 25)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The word "Whoever" is NOT limited to just a single named individual. But whatever person, any person at all. The same for "everyone" The meaning and definition is "every person". So yes, Jesus was and IS indeed talking to ME, specifically.... just the same as He is speaking to all who read and/or hears His words spoken in Scripture.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40
For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


Jesus very plainly stated God's will concerning salvation and eternal life.

The works your institution commands you to do today seeks to manipulate the outcome for tomorrow, in order that your institution might boast in its own glory and self righteousness, as well as give itself permission to sin in the ways it desires. Its a form of inappropriate testing of God. And the outcome will prove to be fatal.

Relying upon what you, yourself do today for tomorrow's outcome is still the presumption of the controlling of things wished for... an assumption many in hell now realize.
 
Actually Bob was direct and to the point. He didn't need to white wash or make his meaning more palpable to your RC tastes. What you want is everyone to take note and obey the voice of a "religious system". Instead of standing in faith on God's promises to us humans.



Your all about Jesus talking to YOU specifically and your religious system, when it comes to putting Him down in your belly, but that suddenly changes when it comes to requiring YOU trusting in Him.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Matthew 7:21-23 (do not confuse these passages with the passages in Matthew 25)

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The word "Whoever" is NOT limited to just a single named individual. But whatever person, any person at all. The same for "everyone" The meaning and definition is "every person". So yes, Jesus was and IS indeed talking to ME, specifically.... just the same as He is speaking to all who read and/or hears His words spoken in Scripture.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40
For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”


Jesus very plainly stated God's will concerning salvation and eternal life.

The works your institution commands you to do today seeks to manipulate the outcome for tomorrow, in order that your institution might boast in its own glory and self righteousness, as well as give itself permission to sin in the ways it desires. Its a form of inappropriate testing of God. And the outcome will prove to be fatal.

Relying upon what you, yourself do today for tomorrow's outcome is still the presumption of the controlling of things wished for... an assumption many in hell now realize.
RCs just get upset because we don't bow down to their mini god the RCC and its false beliefs and leaders. We don't need to do that because God gave us His word and drew us to Jesus.
 
The word "Whoever" is NOT limited to just a single named individual. But whatever person, any person at all. The same for "everyone" The meaning and definition is "every person". So yes, Jesus was and IS indeed talking to ME, specifically.... just the same as He is speaking to all who read and/or hears His words spoken in Scripture.
You are glossing over the fact that when the word "whoever" is used, it is AlWAYS used together with a qualifier, such as "whoever hears my word and believes in Him who send me". That is not such a trivially easy qualifier to satisfy as you might think. To "hear his word" and "believe in the One who sent him" implies more than just saying "I believe" or "feeling" that you believe. As James 2:24 shows, faith without works is dead. That is, if you think you believe, but don't do the things required of a believer, like taking up your cross and following him, you didn't really believe all that much in the first place. That is why I say it is not so easy to be assured these verses promise you personally eternal life. Judas probably thought he believed in Jesus, right up to the week that they came into Jerusalem.
 
Back
Top