Cause and Conduit

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
So many, many people are confused about the relationship between God's grace and human faith and works. There is a vast number of those who claim to be Christians who teach such nonsense as: we are saved by faith alone by Christ alone through grace alone. In so doing they demonstrate a lack of understanding of all three...not to mention what the word "alone" means. I've already addressed the identity of grace, God's unmerited favor, but right now I want to address the relationship between Grace and obedient works of faith as taught in scripture.

First of all, no one denies that Grace is not only necessary for salvation; it is the root cause of it. Without Grace, the rest is moot and not worth even bringing up. Most people can't properly identify Grace, but again, that's for another lesson. However, one thing that must be made clear, Grace is not salvation. Grace causes salvation. Salvation is therefore the effect. Stating that Grace is salvation is to say that the cause is the effect, which is illogical.

On to my analogy. If we think of the metaphor of a lamp, we would say that the power cord makes my lamp function and without it, the lamp would not function. Yet we know that it is actually the electricity that powers the lamp. Without electricity, the cord is useless and the lamp does not function.

The cord is like obedient faith. Electricity is like Grace. Electricity is available but the lamp has to be plugged in for the electricity to power it. In that same way, God has provided Grace. He didn't have to. We didn't deserve it. He gave us that gift because He loved us even while man was still lost in sin (Rom. 5:8). That Grace is available to all men (Titus 2:11). But we have to "plug into" that Grace. God says we must have faith (Eph. 2:8) and describes that faith throughout scripture as obedient faith (Romans 4; Heb. 11; James 2). In Matthew 7:16-27 Jesus taught the following:

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

A person is judged by their fruits, their works. Jesus herein explicitly states that only those that do God's will, that is, they act on that faith in accordance with God's faith system, will enter into the kingdom/church which is the body of the saved.

So the proper understanding of obedient faith is as a conduit through which Grace flows to cause salvation. Together, God's Grace and our obedient faith are the cause and conduit that affects salvation without either, salvation doesn't happen.

There is nothing about earning salvation by trying to work off a debt. This is what Paul addressed in his letters, especially to the Romans. The Old Law could not actually save. One either kept it entirely or was condemned under it. The works according to that law were empty, useless with regard to salvation. At best, they could only point forward to Christ. The works of self-righteousness, of the Mosaical Law, and certainly of evil are all incapable of saving.

Works of obedience, however, are not only capable of saving, they are absolutely necessary, not as a causal force, but as the means by which God has chosen to channel His Grace to us. We in the church must not be afraid to believe this, to state this clearly and without fear of those who believe otherwise. Works save. James was very clear about that. We just have to understand what kind of works and how they save. In Hebrews 5:9 it reads that Jesus "...became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Finally, for those who hold to eternal security, the once saved always saved doctrine, what happens if you unplug the lamp? Will it work any more? What happens if you unplug yourself from Grace by refusing to continue in obedient faith? John wrote: "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1John 1:6-7)

In Truth and Love
 

Saxon

Active member
Salvation by grace is a gift and you cannot benefit or use the gift until you have received the gift. (salvation) As many as received Jesus were given the power (authority) to become the sons of God. You have to receive the gift first, then you have the authority to partake or use it as it is intended. You become God's workmanship in Christ to do the good works that he has ordained that you should do. Salvation comes first then the good works that God has ordained, which baptism is one. You can't use the gift until you have received it or you are putting the horse before the cart.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Salvation by grace is a gift and you cannot benefit or use the gift until you have received the gift. (salvation) As many as received Jesus were given the power (authority) to become the sons of God. You have to receive the gift first, then you have the authority to partake or use it as it is intended. You become God's workmanship in Christ to do the good works that he has ordained that you should do. Salvation comes first then the good works that God has ordained, which baptism is one. You can't use the gift until you have received it or you are putting the horse before the cart.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
If you say so.
 

Neo

Member
Salvation by grace is a gift and you cannot benefit or use the gift until you have received the gift. (salvation) As many as received Jesus were given the power (authority) to become the sons of God. You have to receive the gift first, then you have the authority to partake or use it as it is intended. You become God's workmanship in Christ to do the good works that he has ordained that you should do. Salvation comes first then the good works that God has ordained, which baptism is one. You can't use the gift until you have received it or you are putting the horse before the cart.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
That's interesting you said, "you are putting the horse before the cart."

While reading through the thread this was the exact same thought I had. Interesting. It's not what we do that determines who we are. It's who we are that determines what we do.

It's because we are in Christ that we can do faithful works and actions. It's not that we do faithful works and actions in order to be in Christ.

"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." (John 15:5)

We can't perform the righteousness God expects when we are not attached to the vine. We can only perform righteousness when we already are attached to the vine (Jesus the Christ).

Those in the Church of Christ try to perform righteousness apart from Christ. Why?
 

Saxon

Active member
Those in the Church of Christ try to perform righteousness apart from Christ. Why?
I cannot speak for the Church of Christ as to why they in particular try to perform righteousness apart from Christ, but I can express my opinion as to why many professing Christians are caught up in this sport of Satan. (A professing Christian is anyone that is a Christian all the way to those that are not, but believe that they are.)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

Theses two verses tell the reader what saves us and what does not save us. We must understand what GRACE, FAITH, GIFT and WORK is.

The following definitions are from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. For the sake of space, I have only the definitions that fit the context of the topic.

What is grace?
Definition of grace (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
1a: unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification
b: a virtue coming from God
c: a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance
2a: approval, favor
b archaic : mercy, pardon
c: a special favor : privilege

What does “unmerited” mean?
Definition of unmerited (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
not adequately earned or deserved: not merited

What does faith mean? (This is not to detract from Hebrews 11:1) (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
Definition of faith
2a(1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God

archaic
: BELIEVE, TRUST

What does gift mean? (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
2: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation

What does work mean? (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
11 works plural: performance of moral or religious acts (salvation by works)

The performance of grace is carried out by the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. The Father sent the Son to seek and to save those that are lost. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Son to lead us into all truth. All the actions of grace, meant for our salvation, are achieved by God alone.

For by a virtue coming from God, the unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification are you saved, through belief and trust in and loyalty to God and that not of anything that yourselves can accomplish, it is voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation not of performance of moral or religious acts lest any man should boast.

All that is said, to inform the recipients of salvation, that we had nothing to do that merited getting saved.

The Church of Christ and many other Christian denominations have come to the false conclusion that one needs to be baptised in water in order to be saved. Where this doctrine has come from is not from the Bible. For some reason the believers in baptismal regeneration do not understand the terms grace, faith, gift and works. They may also be just ignoring what it means in order to push their false teaching through. Baptism always comes after salvation.

In North America, we take baptism for granted. It has become a source of religious celebration. But in the Christian faith it is more than that. When one is in some middle east countries, being baptised is not an occasion for parting and merry making, it is a turning point in the person’s life. Are you going to survive the rest of the day, and if you do, what about the next day? Every morning that you wake up you are faced with a decision; am I going to keep this Christian faith, is it worth the effort to stay alive? Some very real concerns that a lot of our Christian brothers and sisters actually have to face every day. If these people were not believers before they were baptised, why would they get baptised?

In reality being a Christian is a matter of life or death, in this life and the life to come.
 
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Neo

Member
Thank you for your reply. What you have said makes a lot of sense. It seems that those in the Church of Christ don't have a faith that can save them because they have faith in what they do, rather than faith in what Jesus the Christ did.

For, a saving faith is one that trusts completely in Jesus the Christ to justify us. It is Jesus' work on and before the cross that is transferred upon us when we trust/have faith in Him to save us.

We are not justified by our faithful works/actions. We are justified by faith in Jesus the Christ's faithful works/actions.

This doesn't mean that those who trust in Christ won't perform faithful works. Of course they will. For, after they receive the Spirit by faith, then they have the power and ability to perform faithful works. These faithful actions don't save a person, but are evidence that a person already is saved.
 

Rook

New Member
The Grace that actually saves abides in Christ, and is a spiritual gift. (Romans 5:2) (2 Tim 2:1)
Spiritual gifts are accessed by sinners in baptism after they open their heart to abide by the voice of God, believing in him.
However after that, the terms is that we continue to have access as we continue to abide by His commands. That is one of the central theme discussed in the entire book of Ephesians.

I don’t see where the disagreement is.
 

Saxon

Active member
The Grace that actually saves abides in Christ, and is a spiritual gift. (Romans 5:2) (2 Tim 2:1)
Spiritual gifts are accessed by sinners in baptism after they open their heart to abide by the voice of God, believing in him.
However after that, the terms is that we continue to have access as we continue to abide by His commands. That is one of the central theme discussed in the entire book of Ephesians.

I don’t see where the disagreement is.
What post are you commenting on?
 

Rook

New Member
What post are you commenting on?
I guess the posts that seem to say we don’t have to do works. James literally says “justified by works.” But since he’s talking about works of God, then this does not disagree with the concept of “saved by faith” as faith and abiding go hand in hand and is a work given to us to do.
 
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Saxon

Active member
I guess the posts that seem to say we don’t have to do works. James literally says “justified by works.”
The Bible says that we are justified by works because of faith. Abraham believed God. He was justified by works when he obeyed God and was going to sacrifice Isaac. Faith came into play before he was justified . Faith requires a resulting work, faith without works is dead.

It was not the act that he was about to do, the sacrifice of Isaac, but believing God, that led him to the place of sacrifice. The actual works do not justify us, but rather the faith in God.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
 

Rook

New Member
It was not the act that he was about to do, the sacrifice of Isaac, but believing God, that led him to the place of sacrifice. The actual works do not justify us, but rather the faith in God.
Right i believe we’re on the same page then.
 

Neo

Member
The Grace that actually saves abides in Christ, and is a spiritual gift. (Romans 5:2) (2 Tim 2:1)
Spiritual gifts are accessed by sinners in baptism after they open their heart to abide by the voice of God, believing in him.
However after that, the terms is that we continue to have access as we continue to abide by His commands. That is one of the central theme discussed in the entire book of Ephesians.

I don’t see where the disagreement is.
I can help us discover where the disagreement(s) are occurring. I first need to ask you a few questions to see what your level of understanding concerning salvation.

When one is justified by faith, can one lose one's justification?

If so, how and why would one lose one's justification?

If one is forgiven of one's sins, does God continue to charge one's account with sin, or does God no longer charge sin to one's account?

If one is declared righteous by God, does this person lose this declaration of righteousness?

If so, then how and why?

These questions will suffice for now. More questions will arise, but this will give us a good foundation to begin our discussion on where the disagreements lie.
 

Rook

New Member
I can help us discover where the disagreement(s) are occurring. I first need to ask you a few questions to see what your level of understanding concerning salvation.

1. When one is justified by faith, can one lose one's justification?

2. If so, how and why would one lose one's justification?

3. If one is forgiven of one's sins, does God continue to charge one's account with sin, or does God no longer charge sin to one's account?

4. If one is declared righteous by God, does this person lose this declaration of righteousness?

If so, then how and why?


These questions will suffice for now. More questions will arise, but this will give us a good foundation to begin our discussion on where the disagreements lie.

1. "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," 1 Timothy 4:1

2. Hebrews 6:4-6 touches on this

3. Forgiveness is a spiritual blessing, and so a person that has forgiveness isn't in debt in this sense. This doesn't imply they cannot fall out of grace where the gift of forgiveness is at some future time if they don't keep their act clean. Ref Galations 2:11 as an example. Also 1 John 1:9

4. Reference Ezekiel 18:24 "But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live?" also ref Hebrews 10:26
 

Neo

Member
1. "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons," 1 Timothy 4:1

2. Hebrews 6:4-6 touches on this

3. Forgiveness is a spiritual blessing, and so a person that has forgiveness isn't in debt in this sense. This doesn't imply they cannot fall out of grace where the gift of forgiveness is at some future time if they don't keep their act clean. Ref Galations 2:11 as an example. Also 1 John 1:9

4. Reference Ezekiel 18:24 "But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live?" also ref Hebrews 10:26
OK, I have tried to help those in the Church of Christ, but the interpretation of Scripture is always debated with not much progress.

I used to read the Scriptures like you, with a legalistic tainting. When I finally understood grace, I read through the passages of Scripture and a floodgates of understanding occurred.

It is very interesting how two people can read the same passages and come to completely different understandings.

Anyway, I could go into what the Bible Scholars say about Hebrews 6:4-6, or you can read the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

But I know this will not convince you. So, maybe a better understanding of the early church will help you.

This might be the topic that helps you. As we know, the letter written to the Hebrews was written for the Jewish Christians. This is a very deep and involved study between the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians.

Paul gives us an interesting insight into the difference:

"Or is God for Jews only? Is He not also for Gentiles? Yes, for Gentiles too, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith." (Romans 3:29)

This is very interesting and many brush this difference off to mean the same thing because the history of the church, as mentioned in Acts, is not understood.

To be justified by faith is what James (the leader of the Jewish Christians) and Hebrews discusses. Hebrews 11 discussed what is done "by" faith.

The Gentile Christians are justified through faith in Christ's work on and before the cross. This is why Paul says we are justified by His blood (sacrifice) I'm Romans 3:21-26.

This is why there was much dispute about the doctrine of salvation during the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

"But some of the believers from the party of the Pharasees stood up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to command them to keep the law if moses!"

Then the apostles and the elders assembled together to consider this matter. After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them:" (Acts 15:5-7)

Let's stop here to realize some very important concepts.

1) There were believers in Christ from the Pharasees.

2) There was a demand that the Gentile Christians must be circumcised and obey the law of Moses to be saved, as you claim as well.

3) There was not a quick decision and agreement immediately by the elders and leaders in the church. Instead, there was disagreement and much debate amongst Paul, Peter, James, the other leaders, etc.

4) This means the doctrine of salvation was not fully decided upon up to this point.

5) However, Peter stands up and makes a definitive answer to how and why an individual is saved.

"And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, [a]acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus [b]Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles."

Peter is declaring that Gentiles and Jews are saved by faith in Jesus the Christ, not by obeying the Law of Moses. This is the moment in time when the doctrine of salvation was put into place. James had a hard time accepting this by what he says in Acts 15:19-21 he still has the legalism of the law on his heart.

If you follow through history, this is where the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians slowly started to separate in the doctrine of salvation.

The Jewish Christians maintained one is saved by faith/faithful acts, whereas the Gentile Christians maintained we are saved through faith in Jesus the Christ's work.

This is why the Jews eventually fell away from Christ. It's because they wanted to continue to trust in the law to be saved and only acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, but not trust in Him fully to be saved.

The Church of Christ is the same as the early Pharisee believers or the Jewish Christians that wanted to continue in obeying the law to be justified.

The Gentile Christians know the importance of obeying the law, but it's not to be saved because Jesus the Christ already fulfilled the law. We don't have to fulfill the law again. Christ already did this.

His righteousness is imparted to us. We are justified through faith in Him. Then we are sanctified by obeying the laws.

I will stop here, but maybe if you understand the history of the early church, who the letters were written to, and the debates within the early church, then maybe you can recognize the legalism within your heart.
 

Rook

New Member
If you follow through history, this is where the Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians slowly started to separate in the doctrine of salvation.

The Jewish Christians maintained one is saved by faith/faithful acts, whereas the Gentile Christians maintained we are saved through faith in Jesus the Christ's work.

This is why the Jews eventually fell away from Christ. It's because they wanted to continue to trust in the law to be saved and only acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, but not trust in Him fully to be saved.

The Church of Christ is the same as the early Pharisee believers or the Jewish Christians that wanted to continue in obeying the law to be justified.

The Gentile Christians know the importance of obeying the law, but it's not to be saved because Jesus the Christ already fulfilled the law. We don't have to fulfill the law again. Christ already did this.

His righteousness is imparted to us. We are justified through faith in Him. Then we are sanctified by obeying the laws.

I will stop here, but maybe if you understand the history of the early church, who the letters were written to, and the debates within the early church, then maybe you can recognize the legalism within your heart.
Nah, no one’s trying to be like those hypocrite Pharisees. Their problem was that their heart was far from God and so they abused scripture and basically turned their cultural traditions into religion putting that before the commands of God. (Mark 7:6-13). Many people today still do that but in not so obvious ways. They put their desires before God’s desires, but that’s another topic.
Here though, we aren’t binding anyone to the law of Moses, what we are binding is the Law of Christ. These are the things that are give to us to fulfill as members of his body. Yes our obedience makes a difference, as it’s noted in 2 Thess 1:8 that those who do not obey will face the vengeance of God in the coming judgement.
Yhoshua fufilled the law yes the law given to Israel by Moses and the prophets. The law that we are under now is called the law of Christ -

1 Corinthians 9:12 To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ).”
it’s this law that’s given to us as children of God to fulfill -
James 1:25 - “But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so--not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer--he will be blessed in what he does.”

The fact that we have to discipline ourselves and work to do our part does not imply that we are seeking to earn salvation of ourselves through the law, since the law of liberty is a work of God being fulfilled through us. Apart from him we can do nothing.

Galatians 6:2 “Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”
 

Neo

Member
Nah, no one’s trying to be like those hypocrite Pharisees. Their problem was that their heart was far from God and so they abused scripture and basically turned their cultural traditions into religion putting that before the commands of God. (Mark 7:6-13). Many people today still do that but in not so obvious ways. They put their desires before God’s desires, but that’s another topic.
Here though, we aren’t binding anyone to the law of Moses, what we are binding is the Law of Christ. These are the things that are give to us to fulfill as members of his body. Yes our obedience makes a difference, as it’s noted in 2 Thess 1:8 that those who do not obey will face the vengeance of God in the coming judgement.
Yhoshua fufilled the law yes the law given to Israel by Moses and the prophets. The law that we are under now is called the law of Christ -

1 Corinthians 9:12 To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ).”
it’s this law that’s given to us as children of God to fulfill -
James 1:25 - “But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom, and continues to do so--not being a forgetful hearer, but an effective doer--he will be blessed in what he does.”

The fact that we have to discipline ourselves and work to do our part does not imply that we are seeking to earn salvation of ourselves through the law, since the law of liberty is a work of God being fulfilled through us. Apart from him we can do nothing.

Galatians 6:2 “Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”
Shakespear was right when he wrote, "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

You can call it the Law of Christ, or walking by faith, or walking in the light, etc, but you are still proclaiming that you need to obey the law of Moses to be saved.

For instance, you say we need to repent of our sins and do what is right to be saved. This is the law of Moses.

You may want to call it walking in the light, being faithful, etc, but your misinterpretation of these concepts is allowing you and others in the Church of Christ to believe in a false doctrine.

Yes, you absolutely are like the believers in Christ from the Pharasees group. You are also like the early Jewish Christians who could not transition from trusting in a law to be saved to trusting in Christ to be saved.

You can't say: "I fully trust in Christ to be saved." Can you?

You have to add, but we also have to live by faith to continue to be saved.

You don't have a faith that can save you. For, it takes a lot of faith to only trust in what Jesus the Christ did to save us.

Your faith is in what you do. You will claim it is you being led by the Spirit, but you are still trusting in what you are doing, rather than what Jesus the Christ already did.

This is why, when I was a part of the Church of Christ, everyone would focus on baptism and repenting of sins. However, the focus was rarely upon Jesus the Christ.

I am concerned that when you meet Jesus the Christ, that He will say, "Depart from me you evil doer. For, I never knew you."

Those in the Church of Christ don't know Jesus. They know how to trust in what they do, not to trust in Jesus the Christ. If you never fully trust in Christ to save you, then you claim to walk in the light, but you actually are walking in the darkness because you never received the Spirit by faith.

You try to gain the Spirit by faithful actions, not by trusting in Jesus the Christ to save you. You are claiming to walk in the light, but actually walk in the darkness.
 

Rook

New Member
Shakespear was right when he wrote, "A rose by any other name is still a rose."

You can call it the Law of Christ, or walking by faith, or walking in the light, etc, but you are still proclaiming that you need to obey the law of Moses to be saved.

For instance, you say we need to repent of our sins and do what is right to be saved. This is the law of Moses.

You may want to call it walking in the light, being faithful, etc, but your misinterpretation of these concepts is allowing you and others in the Church of Christ to believe in a false doctrine.

Yes, you absolutely are like the believers in Christ from the Pharasees group. You are also like the early Jewish Christians who could not transition from trusting in a law to be saved to trusting in Christ to be saved.

You can't say: "I fully trust in Christ to be saved." Can you?

You have to add, but we also have to live by faith to continue to be saved.

You don't have a faith that can save you. For, it takes a lot of faith to only trust in what Jesus the Christ did to save us.

Your faith is in what you do. You will claim it is you being led by the Spirit, but you are still trusting in what you are doing, rather than what Jesus the Christ already did.

This is why, when I was a part of the Church of Christ, everyone would focus on baptism and repenting of sins. However, the focus was rarely upon Jesus the Christ.

I am concerned that when you meet Jesus the Christ, that He will say, "Depart from me you evil doer. For, I never knew you."

Those in the Church of Christ don't know Jesus. They know how to trust in what they do, not to trust in Jesus the Christ. If you never fully trust in Christ to save you, then you claim to walk in the light, but you actually are walking in the darkness because you never received the Spirit by faith.

You try to gain the Spirit by faithful actions, not by trusting in Jesus the Christ to save you. You are claiming to walk in the light, but actually walk in the darkness.
No sir, that's nonsense. I'd encourage you truly open your heart and mind to God and his word and actually do some reading, for the purpose of learning how to do what he expects. We have to READ (Ephesians 3:4). Not just regurgitate false teaching of the untaught and those who twist the scripts. You can even begin with just 1 chapter of the very verses I've quoted in here.
Because faith comes by hearing (understanding) and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him (Hebrews 11:6). Therefore show me how it's possible to have faith in God without even knowing the commandments. Yhoshua did not die so that we can go through life forsaking the commandments. 1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

You didn't give any proof in your post above, and several verses of the Holy text rebuke your stance.

It's up to you, but here's light work - please explain the following using parallel verses, and then feel free to get back with me afterward:
1 John 1:3-6
1 John 5:3
Luke 13:3
Luke 13:5
Luke 6:46
Matthew 7:21
James 2:21
James 2:8
James 2:19
James 2:18-26
1 Corinthians 9:12
2 Thess 1:8
Mark 7:6-13
James 1:25
Galatians 6:2
Acts 2:38
 

Neo

Member
No sir, that's nonsense. I'd encourage you truly open your heart and mind to God and his word and actually do some reading, for the purpose of learning how to do what he expects. We have to READ (Ephesians 3:4). Not just regurgitate false teaching of the untaught and those who twist the scripts. You can even begin with just 1 chapter of the very verses I've quoted in here.
Because faith comes by hearing (understanding) and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please him (Hebrews 11:6). Therefore show me how it's possible to have faith in God without even knowing the commandments. Yhoshua did not die so that we can go through life forsaking the commandments. 1 John 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

You didn't give any proof in your post above, and several verses of the Holy text rebuke your stance.

It's up to you, but here's light work - please explain the following using parallel verses, and then feel free to get back with me afterward:
1 John 1:3-6
1 John 5:3
Luke 13:3
Luke 13:5
Luke 6:46
Matthew 7:21
James 2:21
James 2:8
James 2:19
James 2:18-26
1 Corinthians 9:12
2 Thess 1:8
Mark 7:6-13
James 1:25
Galatians 6:2
Acts 2:38
You do know I used to be a part of the Church of Christ, right? I used to teach their false doctrine. I led many Bible studies and Bible talks for the Church of Christ. I even taught lessons for the whole church on Sundays for them.

I know exactly what the Church of Christ teaches. For, I used to teach the same. I left the church back in 2007 so that I could follow Jesus the Christ rather than the leaders in the church.

It's interesting to note, that most of my friends in the Church of Christ no longer follow God. They turned away. They actually turned away from the church, not God. For, they never truly were following Christ.

I am still following Christ. The doctrine of the Church of Christ creates judgement, self-righteousness, pride, and burnout. The performance treadmill the church puts on an individual eventually burn out the members.

This is one of the reasons most of my friends who used to be in the Church of Christ no longer have any relationship or contact with God.

The Church of Christ is a dangerous doctrine. For, it prevents individuals from trusting in Christ to be saved and eventually turns most permanently against God.

I highly recommend you listen to what I am saying. For, you may eventually find yourself burntout and leaving the church as well. It would be good if you left that church and follow Christ.

I am trying to help your spirit. I care about you.
 

Rook

New Member
You do know I used to be a part of the Church of Christ, right? I used to teach their false doctrine. I led many Bible studies and Bible talks for the Church of Christ. I even taught lessons for the whole church on Sundays for them.

I know exactly what the Church of Christ teaches. For, I used to teach the same. I left the church back in 2007 so that I could follow Jesus the Christ rather than the leaders in the church.

It's interesting to note, that most of my friends in the Church of Christ no longer follow God. They turned away. They actually turned away from the church, not God. For, they never truly were following Christ.

I am still following Christ. The doctrine of the Church of Christ creates judgement, self-righteousness, pride, and burnout. The performance treadmill the church puts on an individual eventually burn out the members.

This is one of the reasons most of my friends who used to be in the Church of Christ no longer have any relationship or contact with God.

The Church of Christ is a dangerous doctrine. For, it prevents individuals from trusting in Christ to be saved and eventually turns most permanently against God.

I highly recommend you listen to what I am saying. For, you may eventually find yourself burntout and leaving the church as well. It would be good if you left that church and follow Christ.

I am trying to help your spirit. I care about you.
You changing the subject. I posted verses, why not address those?

Sorry if you find keep the commandments to be a burden, but I've found the opposite. I don't say this just because of what the text says, but from personal life experience as well. I won't go into detail because i don't want to come off as bragging, but a few life coincidences occurred to me that opened my eyes to understanding the power of sticking with what God says and it's the best thing that ever happened in my life.
 
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