Easy to prove that our physical body is Mortal because it dies and gets put in a grave! As for our nonphysical soul/spirit it leaves our Mortal body when it dies and if saved it goes to Heaven and if unsaved it goes to Hell! The rich man's soul/spirit in the Hell side of Hades spoke to Abraham' soul/spirit in the Paradise side of Hades as shown in Luke 16:19-31 ( before Jesus died on the cross , which emptied the Paradise side of Hades and brought them to Heaven )! Case closed!
Ceasing to exist, or suffering for eternity in "hell"
- Thread starter Unbound68
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Go to a cemetery as it contains many dead bodies of humans ( their soul/spirit left their body when it died )! FYI again ONLY the Mortal body dies! Ezekiel equated the soul as our body ( souls are some times equated as being our body - context is key ) because the Rich man's ,mortal body in Luke chapter 16 died and was buried in his grave ( 6 foot under ) and his nonphysical soul went to the Hell side of Hades where he spoke to Abraham' soul which was on the Paradise side of Hades! A Great Gulf or Chasm ( Possibly the Pit that Satan gets bound in ) separates the 2 sides of Hades! Christ emptied the Paradise side & took them to Heaven after He died on the Cross! The Hell side of Hades is still gaining unbeliever and it will get tossed into the LOF at the GWTG of Rev.20:11-15 after all the Lost souls get judged! Their souls are conscious as the soul of the rich man's dead body left it in the grave 6 feet under and descended into the Hell side of Hades where his soul then spoke! FYI only his dead mortal body in the grave had no consciousness! Case closed!
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Hawkeye
Well-known member
I don’t think anyone is disputing this. Why do you consider it nebulous and important to the debate?
Can you show us where this is explained in scripture?
If what you say is factual ……can you then explain the need for a resurrection?
You do understand that “Hades” is the translated Greek “koine” word for the grave. Maybe you don’t…….. and that would explain much of your confusion.
Does your utterance of “case closed” continually dispel any inward misgivings you may have on the subject…….or is it just a signature habit? It does tend to cause others to look at your argument a bit closer. Perhaps that is indeed your purpose.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Are you aware that the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man predated Christianity and was commonly told by others as just a parable (Egyptian) in the first century?
More than 3/4 of scripture does not mention the existence of an afterlife in "Hell" (Old Testament) covering about 4000 years of divine revelation. Is this not strange? So.....where did this idea (torments in Hell) originate.
The Talmud contains many references to an afterlife but this Rabbinical idea came not from Yahweh.....but from the Greeks and the Egyptians during the four century gap between the Old and the New scriptures. This concept was never revealed to Israel as a nation.
It has been suggested that this subject of an afterlife was originated by "Non-Biblical, Pagan Sources" that had entered Hebrew doctrine prior to the first century and the teachings of Yeshua.
The most commonly taught doctrine from the parable is that we all have immortal souls that go to Heaven or to Hell.......and as we have learned from this thread that concept is not biblical in the slightest.
An example of the contradictions we see in "Lazarus and the Rich Man":
[John 3:13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[Luke 16:22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Can you see the obvious problem here? Most teachings on this subject identify "Abraham's Bosom" as heaven.....but our Savior has told us that no one has gone there. Why would he make this statement if the story of "LATRM" were true. It wasn't!
[Ecclesiastes 9:5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[Luke 16:24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Do you see another problem with calling "LATRM" a true story? Do we discount what we were taught in Ecclesiastes?
I could go on and on but it would get redundant and you would get bored. Read the parable as it was intended by your Savior.....to show us that we should revere the Great God of the Universe, Yahweh and to be very generous and kind to our neighbors.
Case Closed! (LOL)
FYI, GOD preserved His written word in the Bible! Before Jesus shed His blood, no saved person went to the 3rd heaven! They went to the paradise side of Hades! Jesus even told the saved thief on right hand side that today he would with Him in Paradise ( the paradise side of Hades where He preached to all those saved souls so they could then be brought to the 3rd heaven - His Father's house )! Case closed on your FALSE doctrine! Luke chapter 16 is God's written Word!
lol..
For saved people before 1 Thess.4:14-17 Transpires - Absent from the body and present with the Lord as a soul/spirit! When 1 Thess.4:14-17 happens those saved souls receive their glorious resurrection bodies and the STILL ALIVE saved people get their still alive Mortal bodies TRANSFORMED in their Glorious Flesh & Bone bodies just like Jesus' Glorious resurrection body of Flesh & bones ( see 24:39 ) as per Philippians 3:21! So yes the case is closed on your False doctrine that contradicts these posted scriptures of GOD! ---------------------------------
Luke 24:39
New International Version
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” --- Jesus Immortal supernatural resurrection body that can pass through locked door etc.! ---------------------------- Philippians 3:21
New International Version
21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly ( Mortal ) bodies so that they will be like his glorious ( Immortal supernatural flesh & bone resurrection ) body. Now do you get it???? ! These age God's Inspired scriptures!And none of your FALSE doctrines can reopen those closed cases!
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Can you quote that in scripture......"The paradise side of Hades".?I cannot find it....even using my "Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible"!
Here's the verse: 'Young's Literal Translation"
[Luke 23:43] and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
The KOINE had no punctuation marks and most translations all make the same error by placing the "Non Existent" comma after the word "thee".
After all.....that then supports the Pagan, Catholic Theology. Martin Luther should be ashamed of himself. He had the perfect opportunity to set things straight once and for all, but neglected to follow through. The main reason was that his horrible anti Semitic beliefs got in the way...........and most post "Dark Ages" reformed translations reflected his stance on many things.
Did our Savior actually say it that way or did he say it this way?
and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee To-day, with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Since the scriptures show that mortals will all lie in the grave (Hades) until the resurrection it's a good bet that He paused after the word today and meant that the thief would indeed eventually join Him in Paradise.
Can you explain to me why there will be a resurrection of the body......some to life and others to death?
KJV [John 5:29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Side note: I will sometimes use "Young's Literal Translation" for clarity but most of the time I will the KJV since that's what most are familiar with.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
YLT [I Thess 4:14-17]
for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
I'm having difficult following your reasoning here. Please help me.
Does the above passage describe the "Second Coming" or is it some other event?
Hawkeye
Well-known member
To rod.ney of post #67......
I was almost certain you would (could) not answer.
Cest` la vie
Because Jesus did.
Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Death NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible!
Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people that there is no everlasting fire that Jesus clearly warned us about!
That's an assertion not supported in the Bible.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
Why do you believe that a merciful Great Spirit being would want to inflict permanent pain and suffering on those who reject Him? Wouldn’t it be more in line (as to what we believe about Him) to simply see Him put incorrigible sinners out of their misery and subject them to a permanent death …….instead of a permanent life in flames?
If you read the literal Greek regarding the judgement of those sinners you will no where find them suffering (as you say) forever and ever.
That is (of course) if you read and understand what the original manuscripts tell us. You may (like many other folks) not want to do this as it fairly destroys most of pagan Catholicism’s totally erroneous beliefs about the afterlife. Many folks are comfortable with the idea that their fellow citizens of humanity should suffer extreme pain for trillions of years because they rejected the Great God of the Universe.
I don’t think Yahweh ever had this concept in mind but paganism concocted this silly idea and Catholicism allowed this stupidity to enter the early church with many other ridiculous rituals and customs never found in the pages of scripture.
Your passages above of course reflect “Dark Ages” translations by men who thought this story would help to keep the folks in line…….and the collection plates full.
That proves you don't have a clue what's in the Bible!
I didn't say He wants to. He just said He will!
Not Bible!
Matthew 25:41
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Every English Bible says you're wrong!
Prove it, being the master debater you think you are. Show us from the Bible what death DOES mean.
Hawkeye
Well-known member
The question and answer is very succinct. Whether or not He wants to.....or just will....is not the point. Scripture never says He will (or want to) put unrepentant folks into an everlasting type of horrendous punishment. This is a modern day Protestant/Catholic "Fairy Tale".
This is not scriptural. This is mythology perpetuated by uninformed, scholastically challenged, "Dark Age" translators who had little knowledge of the Greek "KOINE".....or Hebrew for that matter as well. For the most part they just translated according to Church doctrine at the time.
Most English Bibles (when it comes to this subject) are very incorrect as they do not translate the original Greek precisely.
The Greek language is indeed very precise and almost impossible to make mistakes in the translation. But.....Church doctrine entered the fray and this has caused "Men" to put their theology above the correct rendering of the Greek.
Here is the correct Greek from the original manuscripts that were used for your passages:
[Matthew 25:41] Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
[Revelation 20:10] and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
[Ephesians 2:7] that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
There will be many ages "to come" and "ages" have a beginning as well as an end. They are not eternal!
The above passages have been taken from "Young's Literal Translation of the Bible"....."Robert Young" being the foremost Hebrew/Greek scholar of the 19th century.
So.....as you can see now.......your post #78 is very full of doctrinal error. You would be wise to invest in a good "Literal" translation of the scriptures as you are missing much by using antiquated "English" bibles.