Theophilos
Well-known member
Perhaps shepherd's sheep are the ones who listen and follow.
My sheep hear my voice. And I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27
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- Thread starter Reformedguy
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My sheep hear my voice. And I know them, and they follow me. John 10:27
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Your asking a literal question about a metaphorical image. Sheep are not moral, rational beings! The question is wrongheaded and based on false assumptions and basis of fact!
What?
zerinus
Well-known member
John 10:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
According to this verse, his “sheep” are those hear his voice, and follow him. The shepherd and sheep is used as a metaphor in the New Testament, and not meant to be taken literally. In the Bible, Jesus himself is identified as “sheep”:
Acts 8:
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
The Bible is full of such metaphorical expressions. That was a very common thing in oriental cultures, and they were never meant to be taken literally. Jesus also identifies himself as the “door” of the sheep:
John 10:
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
If he is the “door,” then who opens the ”door”? The sheep I guess. A door doesn’t open itself, those who use it to go in and out do—unless it is an automatic door! They didn’t have automatic doors in those days, so that one is ruled out!
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So doe sheep choose their shepherd or does the shepherd choose his sheep?
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So you prefer not to answer?
Does Christ call His sheep or does He sit by the phone waiting for them to call?
zerinus
Well-known member
It depends on whether you want to take the metaphor literally, or just as a metaphor, as it is meant to be. Answer that question for me first, and I will tell you.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
No, I asked first. Do the sheep call the Shepard or does the shepherd call the sheep?
zerinus
Well-known member
Answer remains the same. It depends on whether you want to take the metaphor literally, or just as a metaphor, as it is meant to be. I need to know the answer to that question in order to be able to answer your question. It is impossible to do it otherwise.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Thats called dodging. Good talk
zerinus
Well-known member
The dodging is coming from you. Your question cannot be answered without proper contextualization. Jesus was not literally a shepherd, and his disciples were not literally sheep. Your question is meaningless in the context of the metaphor of the shepherd and the sheep, until the metaphorical nature of the context is recognized and taken into account. You obviously are aware of that, but don’t want to admit it because to do so would make the deceptive nature of your question apparent.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
When you answer mine I will gladly answer yours. Thats how it works.
Does Christ call His sheep or sit by the phone and wait for them to call?
zerinus
Well-known member
Not according to Jesus:
Mark 11:
28 And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
33 And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.
Jesus told us to follow his example, and so that is what I do.
Let’s find out from what he said:
Matthew 11:
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 7:
37 . . . If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Why is he telling them to “come to him,” if he is the one who decides who does? Is he a hypocrite?
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Sheep will come when called. See John 10.
Would they come if they are not called? Lol my goodness
brightfame52
Well-known member
He says if the man thirsts, let him come Its conditioned on the man having been given a spiritual thirst Matt 5:6
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
To thirst for righteouness, the righteousness of God revealed in the Gospel is a evidence of having been given Spiritual life, New Birth,
zerinus
Well-known member
The “call” is to everyone, not just to the “sheep”. Did he tell anyone, “don’t come”? I don’t recall that he did. Whether they come or not is their choice. They become sheep if they choose to come, not because he had made them to come.
He “called” everyone. He didn’t tell anyone not to come. If that is the criteria, then everyone must be his sheep. Your logic doesn’t work no matter how you apply it (or twist it around).
brightfame52
Well-known member
False, and whom He called, them He also Justified Rom 8:30
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Thats His Elect Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
zerinus
Well-known member
You insist on making the Bible contradict itself. You have built for yourself a theology of biblical self-contradiction. And it is not just any kind of self-contradiction. It is a theology that pits 1% of the Bible against 99%. It is built on 1% of the Bible, while turning a blind eye to 99% which teaches something different. The “call” is to everyone without exception, not just to the “elect”:
Matthew 11:
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 7:
37 . . . If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
The “call” is to everyone, not just the “elect”. They become the “elect” if they choose to come, not because somebody has made them to.
brightfame52
Well-known member
So do you deny that them He called, them He Justified ? Read the verse Rom 8:30
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
zerinus
Well-known member
He “called” those whom he knew in his foreknowledge would choose him. And the word “predestinate” in the KJV English doesn’t have the same meaning as the word “predestine” or “predestination” does in modern English. It means to “appoint beforehand,” to “foreordain”.