Choice

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Sorry stating I was unable to find it is not a confession of a lie

Your hypocrisy on this is evident

Was Theo lying multiple times when he denied having spoken of elect yet to be born
Then you misspoke and should apologize. Time man up choice meats boy.

I dont know. Given your track record now maybe your lying again.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
You're not answering my question. Do you not know the answer?
I asked first.

Back to the original question:
Which is true:
a) Christ tasted death for every man
b) Christ did not taste death for every man

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Sorry stating I was unable to find it is not a confession of a lie

Your hypocrisy on this is evident

Was Theo lying multiple times when he denied having spoken of elect yet to be born
Put an end to the above divisiveness, name calling and sowing discord among the brethren.

Own up to the logical conclusion of your merited grace "gospel." That conclusion is none other than "Congrats Tom, you achieved it, you did it!" Embrace it. Instead of your above, own your false teachings inevitable conclusion and deal with it inwardly.
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Thank you for posting the actual scripture which is in Hebrews and not 1 Cor.

So we can see that not everyone will be saved, so Christ's did not taste death effectively for every man.

You seem to think so.
I don't think so, I believe so, since that is what Scripture states.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You seem to think that Christ's death guarantees salvation.
 

Howie

Well-known member
That still has nothing to do with the discussion

And no that is not salvation by works

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is justification by works ?

One is justified by faith

and that is not a work

Maybe you should heed scripture rather than the rhetoric of your systematic
I have read many of your posts. Your position is you are elect BECAUSE you believe rather than you believe BECAUSE you are elect. That is clearly salvation by works.
 

Howie

Well-known member
I asked first.
Back to the original question:
Which is true:
a) Christ tasted death for every man
b) Christ did not taste death for every man

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Already answered, here.
 

Joe

Well-known member
You are talking a lot of nonsense to be honest, and not worth a serious reply, and I will not be wasting time reading or replying to your posts in the future.
Of course the truth is nonsense to you. It makes no sense to the man living by the flesh. You reject God’s Word and adopted something else as truth and testify that you “interpret them as God interpreted them”, and then refuse to agree that only by faith is God pleased, clearly contradicting your claim.

You reject faith alone and add man’s virtue to the mix, thus nullifying God’s Word.

Read Hebrews 11. It is all about faith. God’s People act upon their faith to what God has declared and He is pleased. They don’t do good things to outside of faith to please Him, for they live by faith.
 

JDS

Well-known member
Explain who God chooses as per Ephesians.
You do not believe God makes a choice which is even more sinful.
Manfred, when you and your fellow Calvinists say you believe Ephesians, you do not mean you believe Ephesians, you mean you believe the Calvinist perversion of Ephesians from chapter 1, verse 4, which is explained in the remainder of the epistle and is evidenced by historical fact and recorded in the Acts of the apostles and upon which the revelation of the "mystery of Christ" is built.

If I were guessing, I would venture the guess that you have never been interested in what this mystery is, though it is plainly stated in Ephesians 3:6 and gives us the mind of God and his type of thinking in words he has chosen to make humble Christians with a knee that is bowed to him understand. Humility and submission does not describe Calvinists of any stripe.

This plan and purpose FOR THIS AGE WHILE HE IS FORMING HIS CHURCH WITH JEWS FIRST AND THEN GENTILES is what this epistle is all about. Of course the Jews are mentioned first in this body, Eph 1:3-12, because they are first in this body, beginning in Jerusalem in AD 30 when the Holy Spirit was sent down from heaven to indwell individual members of a body of believers in Christ and to baptize (immerse) the individual member into the mystical body as a functioning and integral member of that body that God has chosen. God has not chosen who is in the body but he has chosen the body because the body is Christ.

Here is the beginning clearly stated by Peter, a Jew who had been saved for 10 years when he said this and had never seen a gentile saved until this time. Here it.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles ALSO was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Read the word also in Ephesians 1:13 for the transition to include gentiles in something that God had already started through the Jews)
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them (Gentiles) the like gift (it was not faith BTW) as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

This is the beginning for gentiles as the scriptures clearly say. Acts 2 was the beginning for the Jews. I can easily prove in one post that this is a brand new age, separate and distinct from the previous age, and God has a certain purpose he is working out in it. There are passages that tell us when that purpose of his will be accomplished and what will bring this age to an end and what will happen then. The mysteries are revealed through the apostles and the mystery of the church of Jesus Christ is known through the scriptures of the apostle Paul, who was chosen of God to reveal it to Christians with a heart for God and his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here is the beginning for gentiles, ckearly stated and connected to the giving of the Holy Ghost to indwell their mortal bodies.

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Calvinists have a different means of being chosen, which is a lie.

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

God has chosen all who the Spirit of God baptizes into the body of Christ, Jew or gentile.

The Spirit indwells every person who hears the gospel of Jesus Christ and believes. This would preclude anyone previous to this age who did not live in this age. It will exclude anyone who is still here when this age ends and the next one begins. The purpoe of God in this age is to form a bride for Christ from his wounded side and, when complete, to present her to him as his help meet. We will rule and reign with him for eternity.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

This is a partial explanation of Ephesians and the NT scriptures. The theology you try to convince people of is embarrassing.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
The scripture you just ignored

Starting with verse 1

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul is writing to the faithful in Christ = plural

It is to the faithful in Christ is the promise to be holy and blameless before God in love

Not to unconditionally select some men to be in Christ

That is your problem right therei

previously


What else would you call the the collective body of the faithful in Christ

This is what Ephesians speaks of


gather together in one all things in Christ ... the redemption of the purchased possession ... his inheritance in the saints ... the church, which is his body ... who has made both one ... to make in himself of twain one new man ... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body ... the household of God ... all the building fitly framed together er ... an holy temple ... builded together for an habitation of God ... of the same body ... the mystery from the beginning of the world [now disclosed in] the church [as the fulfillment of] the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord ... of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named ... glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages ... one body ... the body of Christ ... the whole body fitly joined together ... increase of the body ... we are members one of another ... Christ is the head of the church ... the saviour of the body ... Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church ... they two shall be one flesh [but] I speak concerning Christ and the church. The concept of the corporate body of the elect is intrinsic in all the above excerpts. Consider 2:12, "you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise.... " The concept of the corporate election of Israel, a concept derived from many Scriptures, is clearly apparent. The concept of corporate election is equally apparent in Paul's assertion that Jews and Gentiles together are "reconciled to God in one body on the cross" (v. 16). The New Testament comprehends believers, not in isolation, but as members of the body of the elect. The election of individual men cannot be isolated from "the church, which is his body" any more than it can be isolated from Christ Himself.

.....................................................


that is a collective body





Why would you assume the necessity that must be denied

Can God not know of the entity the church and not determine those in it should be holy and blameless and be adopted as son without determining who would be in it

Even further as per the Arminian belief could God not know who would be in Christ and sellect them to be holy and blameless

You have to reject both possibilities out of hand and just assume men are unconditionally selected to be in Christ which the passage never states
So when I read that scripture it does not apply to me individually, nor to anyone individually.

Why do you keep bringing scripture down to your level?
I am a Christian and with others we are Christians.

The scripture says we as individual Christians have been chosen by God to be in Christ before the foundation of the earth.

You want to force your ideas onto scripture over and over again.

You can reference as many commentaries as you want.
The scripture is speaking of individuals.

Even if you want to say the church was chosen to be in Christ it talks about individuals who are the temple of God and not a concept.
So you remain refuted.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Okay, let's not confuse the issue. Did those ECF's believe they were Saved by God's Prevening Grace before they Willed to believe? If so, bringing up that they taught they can freely believe, is the confusing Factor; right? Didn't they presume that Grace had always appeared before their Will appeared? After Grace? Sure we can freely Will to believe the Gospel...
Grace was not the issue. All presupposed grace. All held man through his free will was capable of believing
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I would argue that faith without works is dead, Seth.

Perhaps the Bible says that. :)
Of course the Bible says that. A faith that does not show itsself is not a true faith. But it is not the works that the Bible says are counted as righteous; it is the faith,
So being specific about what the Bible says is a good approach to avoid going off track
 
T

TomFL

Guest
I have read many of your posts. Your position is you are elect BECAUSE you believe rather than you believe BECAUSE you are elect. That is clearly salvation by works.
Sorry God saves those that believe

Election is in Christ not unconditionally

One must have faith to be in Christh

and if righteousness through faith is not a work nor is election or salvation

And no that is not salvation by works

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is justification by works ?

One is justified by faith

and that is not a work

Maybe you should heed scripture rather than the rhetoric of your systematic
 

Howie

Well-known member
Sorry God saves those that believe

Election is in Christ not unconditionally

One must have faith to be in Christh

and if righteousness through faith is not a work nor is election or salvation

And no that is not salvation by works

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is justification by works ?

One is justified by faith

and that is not a work

Maybe you should heed scripture rather than the rhetoric of your systematic
I have read many of your posts. Your position is you are elect BECAUSE you believe rather than you believe BECAUSE you are elect. That is clearly salvation by works.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Who does this scripture apply to then Tom.
Did God choose or not.

The words are there, you are blind when the words appear. Your mind goes blank.
I am sure Tom will respond, he seems to be up to it, but there is a simple thing you are missing, which every Calvinist misses, the word "in"
I probably should not say "misses" but adjusts.
For a Calvinist, we were not chosen in Christ. Instead we were chosen to be in Christ.
As many as received Him, to THEM he gave,,,
 
T

TomFL

Guest
The scripture you just ignored

Starting with verse 1

Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Paul is writing to the faithful in Christ = plural

It is to the faithful in Christ is the promise to be holy and blameless before God in love

Not to unconditionally select some men to be in Christ

That is your problem right therei

previously


What else would you call the the collective body of the faithful in Christ

This is what Ephesians speaks of


gather together in one all things in Christ ... the redemption of the purchased possession ... his inheritance in the saints ... the church, which is his body ... who has made both one ... to make in himself of twain one new man ... that he might reconcile both unto God in one body ... the household of God ... all the building fitly framed together er ... an holy temple ... builded together for an habitation of God ... of the same body ... the mystery from the beginning of the world [now disclosed in] the church [as the fulfillment of] the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord ... of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named ... glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages ... one body ... the body of Christ ... the whole body fitly joined together ... increase of the body ... we are members one of another ... Christ is the head of the church ... the saviour of the body ... Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church ... they two shall be one flesh [but] I speak concerning Christ and the church. The concept of the corporate body of the elect is intrinsic in all the above excerpts. Consider 2:12, "you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise.... " The concept of the corporate election of Israel, a concept derived from many Scriptures, is clearly apparent. The concept of corporate election is equally apparent in Paul's assertion that Jews and Gentiles together are "reconciled to God in one body on the cross" (v. 16). The New Testament comprehends believers, not in isolation, but as members of the body of the elect. The election of individual men cannot be isolated from "the church, which is his body" any more than it can be isolated from Christ Himself.

.....................................................


that is a collective body





Why would you assume the necessity that must be denied

Can God not know of the entity the church and not determine those in it should be holy and blameless and be adopted as son without determining who would be in it

Even further as per the Arminian belief could God not know who would be in Christ and sellect them to be holy and blameless

You have to reject both possibilities out of hand and just assume men are unconditionally selected to be in Christ which the passage never states

So when I read that scripture it does not apply to me individually, nor to anyone individually.

If you are in church it certainly applies to you

In time you would be in Christ

Why do you keep bringing scripture down to your level?
I am a Christian and with others we are Christians.

And so ?

In the church you have all those promised blessing

Is that too difficult for you to understand ?

The scripture says we as individual Christians have been chosen by God to be in Christ before the foundation of the earth.

Sorry it says no such thing

nowhere is is stated men are selected to be in Christ

rather it is those in Christ chosen to be holy and blameless

Why must you twist scripture to make it support your theology

Manfred stated

You want to force your ideas onto scripture over and over again.

You can reference as many commentaries as you want.
The scripture is speaking of individuals.


Sorry it takes more than your mere say so and twisting of scripture

Produce the words saying men were unconditionally selected to be in Christ


Manfred stated

Even if you want to say the church was chosen to be in Christ it talks about individuals who are the temple of God and not a concept.
So you remain refuted.

Sorry but your confusion is great

You assume God cannot know of the entity called the church composed of the faithful in Christ and chose them to be holy and blameless

Further as the Arminian would argue you just assume the choice was uncondition and not based on foreknowledge

Further you ignore those promises are to the faithful in Christ

who Paul is writing to

Ephesians 1:1 (ESV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
 
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