Chosen to Salvation !

Sethproton

Well-known member
Look Men were Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to Salvation Eph 1 4, before they existed in the flesh. So it's unconditional.
Yes, I agree that they were chosen in Christ. But there is only one way that I have ever heard that makes sense of that. And it is not Calvinism. As a Calvinist you have already decided that God chose you to be saved, so you see that in every verse.
Mainstream Christianity interprets the verse to be showing God's foreknowledge. And at times I do see Calvinists denying that God has foreknowledge, but this is a verse that relies on His foreknowledge.
He foresees who will be saved, by coming to Christ, and He ordains that they will be chosen when they are in Christ.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Yes, I agree that they were chosen in Christ. But there is only one way that I have ever heard that makes sense of that. And it is not Calvinism. As a Calvinist you have already decided that God chose you to be saved, so you see that in every verse.
Mainstream Christianity interprets the verse to be showing God's foreknowledge. And at times I do see Calvinists denying that God has foreknowledge, but this is a verse that relies on His foreknowledge.
He foresees who will be saved, by coming to Christ, and He ordains that they will be chosen when they are in Christ.
They were Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4 so they had no physical existence to perform a condition. There choice by God in Eternity was Sovereign and unconditional.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Personal attack.
You gave your errant comments about scripture.
that is not true. 100% of my post was scripture and your response was "wrong" Do you think before you post or are you so bent on being right you have no concern for truth?

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Sethproton

Well-known member
They were Chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world Eph 1 4 so they had no physical existence to perform a condition. There choice by God in Eternity was Sovereign and unconditional.
When will you address the main point of this discussion and explain how they were IN Christ before they existed?
 

Chalcedon

Well-known member
you seem to only care about one thing on this forum, proving calvinism wrong. see the irony ?

and BTW do you still fellowship at a CALVINIST church ?

pot calling kettle anyone ????
bump for sethproton............................

why would a pelagian fellowship with calvinists ?

is that not an oxymoron ?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-known member
Where does faith come from? Good question. Part of the answer comes in understanding how the word is used. The first leg of our faith is a gift from God. God has given everyone of us a measure of faith. But that faith does not walk until we mix it with truth and entrust ourselves to God.
So yes, faith comes from God, entrusting ourselves to Him is our job. The Greek word for faith has both meanings.
That’s not what Romans 12:3 says my friend.

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.[Romans 12:1-3]

This measure of faith God has allotted it to believers. If He allotted it to everyone, then everyone is saved, seeing that 1) we are justified by faith[Romans 5:1], and 2) it is what pleases Him[Hebrews 11:6].
 
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Beloved Daughter

Super Member
If faith is totally from God tell me why It is spoken of as your faith. Why some faith is strong and some faith is weak. Why Jesus castigated those with little or weak faith and praised those with great or strong faith. Was Jesus criticizing or praising God's gift depending on the the circumstance

Tom, you know your Bible well, though your interpretation is often different from mine. I'm certain that you have read Romans 12:3 before.

God apportions the amount of faith one receives

Romans 12:3

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Much as some don't like it, the Bible isn't a book of egalitarian thought. God knows each person and he apportions how much faith each person will receive.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Tom, you know your Bible well, though your interpretation is often different from mine. I'm certain that you have read Romans 12:3 before.

God apportions the amount of faith one receives

Romans 12:3​

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Much as some don't like it, the Bible isn't a book of egalitarian thought. God knows each person and he apportions how much faith each person will receive.
If you read the context that is faith for ministry gifts

Rom. 12:3–6 —NASB
Ҧ For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;”

and not faith to be saved
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
there is a difference between chosen in Christ and chosen to be in Christ. The latter is the manufactured meaning that Calvinit have concocted.
The first phrase "chosen in Christ" means that when we are in Christ we become chosen as He is chosen. The concept is seen in several places. In Christ, His righteousness becomes ours. In Christ redemption becomes ours. In Him, the only true Chosen One, we become chosen.

The Calvinist concept of chosen to be in Christ is contrary to the Biblical principles I just laid out.

Sorry Seth, that's just not true. You don't have any scripture to support this. Scripture says very clearly that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. There is no place to run to Seth. It's a clear, straightforward teaching.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?



Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,



Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)


28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.



Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.



Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.



Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)


13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,



Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,



1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,



2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)


25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
If you read the context that is faith for ministry gifts

Rom. 12:3–6 —NASB
Ҧ For through the grace given to me I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;”

and not faith to be saved

And your point is? This is self-evident. We experience this in the world at large.

"according to the grace given to us"
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Yes, I agree that they were chosen in Christ. But there is only one way that I have ever heard that makes sense of that. And it is not Calvinism. As a Calvinist you have already decided that God chose you to be saved, so you see that in every verse.
Mainstream Christianity interprets the verse to be showing God's foreknowledge. And at times I do see Calvinists denying that God has foreknowledge, but this is a verse that relies on His foreknowledge.
He foresees who will be saved, by coming to Christ, and He ordains that they will be chosen when they are in Christ.

You must be reading something other than the 66 books of the Bible. Because the Bible knows nothing of what you have posted. I have NEVER, EVER seen a Calvinist deny foreknowledge. Perhaps you can find that so we can all observe it.

 
T

TomFL

Guest
Sorry Seth, that's just not true. You don't have any scripture to support this. Scripture says very clearly that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. There is no place to run to Seth. It's a clear, straightforward teaching.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

You do understand this concerns the time Jesus was on the earth to do the Father's will and before the cross

We live after the cross

John 12:32–33 —NASB
““And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.”

verse 44 concerns the father enabling of men to come to Jesus effecting a covenant transfer

The way it came about is stated in verse 45

John 6:45 —NASB
““It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.”

all that were the Fathers who heard and learned came to Jesus

but again this was in the changing economy of old covenant to new


Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You have to understand Paul interlocutor is not an Arminian arguing against a Calvinist soteriology

It is a harden Jew who was being cutoff and used for the purpose of bringing about the crucifixion .





19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Again the Jew arguing if God is using him for his purpose why is he faulted

If you read the original account in Jeremiah yo will see the clay was marred unfit for its purpose

The Jew was supposed to have served a noble purpose and the world was supposed to be blessed through him

However he was unfaithful and God hardened him in that state so as to effect the crucifixion

using him as he willed

Going back to the Jeremiah account

Jer. 18:1–12 —ESV
Ҧ The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
“Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.”
So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel.
And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
¶ Then the word of the LORD came to me:
“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the LORD. Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.
If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’
¶ “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’”

One can see the clay is Israel and had quite a rebellious nature



Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

one becomes in Christ through faith

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

before faith

Eph. 2:12 —ESV
“remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.”

Now Eph 1:4

God before the foundation of the earth chose us - the faithful in Christ to be holy and and blameless before him in love

This a promise to men who are in Christ not men unconditionally chosen


Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Yes it start with those who love God and are called according to his purpose

Those he foreknew that is knew formerly who were in a relation of love with God are predestined to be conformed to the image of his son and the whole golden chain

But it is not to unconditionally selected men but those who loved God


Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Yes salvation is not your doing. God must save

and the gift is salvation through faith

It is a gift for there is no salvatory merit in faith itself that is it does not earn salvation - salvation cannot be earned in any manner
Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

depending on the meaning of the word tasso

If appointed we are not told upon what grounds they are appointed

was it foreseen faith as the Arminian might claim ?

We don't know

If disposed we are not told how they were disposed

there is not enough information here to come to a definite conclusion

Its gotten rather long but I can go on if you like
 
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