Chosen to Salvation !

Theo1689

Well-known member
Friend, how can you possibly read "world" to say "sheep"?

Would you prefer we read the word, "world" to mean, "globe of dirt"?
Your question smacks of such extreme incredulity that it seems apparent that you aren't willing to accept ANY response give to you, so why waste time asking for something you don't even want?
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Easily. I have explained that numerous times before. It's the world of Sheep.
If you have explained it, you have been wrong. The definition of that Greek word has nothing to do with sheep.
The Greek word is kosmos and is defined as: the world, the universe and a variety of meanings about the various humans that inhabit the earth, There are other usages, but none refer to believers or sheep specifically
Words have meaning and the writers chose the words they wanted to express what they were saying.
John could have written that God loved the sheep, or God loved the elect, but he chose the word that best described his point: kosmos
 

zerinus

Well-known member
If you have explained it, you have been wrong. The definition of that Greek word has nothing to do with sheep.
The Greek word is kosmos and is defined as: the world, the universe and a variety of meanings about the various humans that inhabit the earth, There are other usages, but none refer to believers or sheep specifically
Words have meaning and the writers chose the words they wanted to express what they were saying.
John could have written that God loved the sheep, or God loved the elect, but he chose the word that best described his point: kosmos
This verse makes it clearer still:

1 John 2:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins [the “sheep”]: and not for ours [the “sheep”] only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


In this verse John makes a distinction between “us,” meaning the true believers, the “sheep,” whom he is addressing in his letter; and the rest of the "whole world,” which includes everything else; and applies the Atonement equally to all without exception. How can that mean anything other than what it says?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Would you prefer we read the word, "world" to mean, "globe of dirt"?
Your question smacks of such extreme incredulity that it seems apparent that you aren't willing to accept ANY response give to you, so why waste time asking for something you don't even want?
That sounds like what you claimed in response to Jn 3:16 a while back

It was an error then just as sheep is an error now

neither are the meaning in such passages
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
If you have explained it, you have been wrong. The definition of that Greek word has nothing to do with sheep.
The Greek word is kosmos and is defined as: the world, the universe and a variety of meanings about the various humans that inhabit the earth, There are other usages, but none refer to believers or sheep specifically
Words have meaning and the writers chose the words they wanted to express what they were saying.
John could have written that God loved the sheep, or God loved the elect, but he chose the word that best described his point: kosmos
In your imagination and opinion I'm wrong . I know what kosmos means.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
In your imagination and opinion I'm wrong . I know what kosmos means.
No you do not have a clue

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No you do not have a clue

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only
Again I know what kosmos means. I have posted it many times before even to you. Probably to seth as well.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Again I know what kosmos means. I have posted it many times before even to you. Probably to seth as well.
Not if one examines the evidence

No you do not have a clue

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
This verse makes it clearer still:

1 John 2:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins [the “sheep”]: and not for ours [the “sheep”] only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


In this verse John makes a distinction between “us,” meaning the true believers, the “sheep,” whom he is addressing in his letter; and the rest of the "whole world,” which includes everything else; and applies the Atonement equally to all without exception. How can that mean anything other than what it says?
It does not work for me for you to ignore truth about one verse and then quote something else to prove you are right to change what the first verse says.
Our first verse says He takes away the sins of the world. The word world has a meaning. You should not feel free to change the meaning of a word to suit your doctrine.
How can you change the word kosmos to sheep?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
It does not work for me for you to ignore truth about one verse and then quote something else to prove you are right to change what the first verse says.
Our first verse says He takes away the sins of the world. The word world has a meaning. You should not feel free to change the meaning of a word to suit your doctrine.
How can you change the word kosmos to sheep?
I have no idea what you are trying to get at. As far as I can tell, the argument was about whether Jesus atoned for the sons of all men, or only the elect? There are several verses of the Bible which support the idea that he atone for the sons of all men, John 1:29 being one of them, but not the only one. My point was that 1 John 2:2 is an even better proof text for that doctrine than John 1:29, for the reasons I had explained.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
I have no idea what you are trying to get at. As far as I can tell, the argument was about whether Jesus atoned for the sons of all men, or only the elect? There are several verses of the Bible which support the idea that he atone for the sons of all men, John 1:29 being one of them, but not the only one. My point was that 1 John 2:2 is an even better proof text for that doctrine than John 1:29, for the reasons I had explained.
Just the dynamics of this forum, with all the posters and scattered conversations. So you were agreeing with me and I posted back as if you disagreed. That is unfortunate, because I probably should have directed that to someone else.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Just the dynamics of this forum, with all the posters and scattered conversations. So you were agreeing with me and I posted back as if you disagreed. That is unfortunate, because I probably should have directed that to someone else.
Or maybe a case of cognitive dissonance on your part.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Not if one examines the evidence

No you do not have a clue

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only
So world can apply to the Sheep or Elect!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Not if one examines the evidence

No you do not have a clue

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only
According to your errant theology, God failed in His endeavor to save the whole entire world as by your misinterpretation that is what He set out to do.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
According to your errant theology, God failed in His endeavor to save the whole entire world as by your misinterpretation that is what He set out to do.
You failed to show anything was errant

It seem you can't back up your rhetoric with scripture

and do not address anything


b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only

and God did not fail he saves those that believe as is stated in scripture
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So world can apply to the Sheep or Elect!
Not in any of those context as the lexicons show

Not if one examines the evidence

No you do not have a clue

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47

John 3:16 —KJV
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

not sheep only

John 3:17 —KJV
“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”

not sheep only

John 6:51 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

not sheep only

John 12:47 —KJV
“And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”

not sheep only

It is impossible sheep only are meant here \
 
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