Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

brightfame52

Well-known member
1 Thess 5:9-10

. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I believe this means that the ones appointed to wrath, Christ didn't die for them. Who are they appointed to wrath ? Romans 9 tells us,

Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

Its the same word Jesus speaks Matt 19:4

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And we know this refers back to creation Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

So God made some men as vessels of dishonor. The word dishonor atimia means:

dishonour, ignominy, disgrace dishonour (4x), vile (1x), shame (1x), reproach (1x).

In the last day the vessels of wrath will be raised unto shame/contempt and wrath Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Job speaks of the wicked reserved unto the day of wrath

Job 21:30


that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Now these men Christ did not die for, for what reason would He since He made them for the day of wrath for their sins, they are appointed to it.

BUT those who were made vessels of Mercy, God did not appoint them to wrath, but conversely for them to obtain Salvation. How ? Through the Lord Jesus Christ who died for them.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The word to make poieō is a verb that has to do with to create.

What you fail to understand Israel was the clay that showed itself unfit for the noble purpose intended for it and as result God made Israel a vessel of dishonor using it to bring about the crucifixion
 

Septextura

Well-known member
What you fail to understand Israel was the clay that showed itself unfit for the noble purpose intended for it and as result God made Israel a vessel of dishonor using it to bring about the crucifixion

Paul is using the same metaphor borrowed from Isaiah also in:

2 Timothy 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This here is to individuals. It's a reference to the vessels (pots) used for holy service in the Tabernacle.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Paul is using the same metaphor borrowed from Isaiah also in:

2 Timothy 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This here is to individuals. It's a reference to the vessels (pots) used for holy service in the Tabernacle.
That's not fair, is it? Pots should determine their value and usage by their own choice, not by what God has determined. An earthen pot can turn itself into a golden pot just like a goat can turn itself into a sheep! Who does God think He is, God??? ;)
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Pure Flowerism ideology devoid of exegetical biblical support.

Next...

Isaiah 45:9
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isaiah 45
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Their seed is after Ishmael, but the children of God are after Isaac in the Spirit. The flesh profits nothing.

What you fail to understand Israel was the clay that showed itself unfit for the noble purpose intended for it and as result God made Israel a vessel of dishonor using it to bring about the crucifixion

Which Israel is that, Tom?

Romans 8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
 
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Theophilus

Well-known member
That's not fair, is it? Pots should determine their value and usage by their own choice, not by what God has determined. An earthen pot can turn itself into a golden pot just like a goat can turn itself into a sheep! Who does God think He is, God??? ;)

Who does God think He is? God is who he is, and that’s all there is to it. He is who he is; he has always been who he is; and he always will be who he is. But that doesn't stop man from trying to transform Him into our image. Man wants to be independent of Him, and this is the essence of what the Bible calls sin. It is self-exalting pride that seeks to usurp the place of God in our lives; to turn our backs upon Him and take the reins of our lives in our own hands. Sin from the very beginning was the desire to be ‘like God’ and seek our own interests instead of His. As you put it to turn and earthen pot into a golden pot.
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Who does God think He is? God is who he is, and that’s all there is to it. He is who he is; he has always been who he is; and he always will be who he is. But that doesn't stop man from trying to transform Him into our image. Man wants to be independent of Him, and this is the essence of what the Bible calls sin. It is self-exalting pride that seeks to usurp the place of God in our lives; to turn our backs upon Him and take the reins of our lives in our own hands. Sin from the very beginning was the desire to be ‘like God’ and seek our own interests instead of His. As you put it to turn and earthen pot into a golden pot.
Amen!!!
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Isaiah 45:9
9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Isaiah 45
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.



Which Israel is that, Tom?

Romans 8
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Thus sayeth the Flowerism; "God is a bigger God if we're actually God and He ain't, I mean isn't!!!!"

Dadgummit, my Texas dialect messed that up! Can't have that in the new Provisionist Study Babble!

"Take two!"
 
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TomFL

Guest
Pure Flowerism ideology devoid of exegetical biblical support.

Next...

What was God's purpose in selecting Israel but to fulfill his promise to bless all the nations through Abraham's seed

If you don't understand that you understand little
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Paul is using the same metaphor borrowed from Isaiah also in:

2 Timothy 2
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

This here is to individuals. It's a reference to the vessels (pots) used for holy service in the Tabernacle.
Yes and ???


What does verse 21 tell you ?

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
 

Septextura

Well-known member
Yes and ???


What does verse 21 tell you ?

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Israel wasn't a vessel of dishonor as you claimed. The true Israel, the remnant of God was made a vessel of honor, and everyone else was made for dishonor and blinded. God sifts Israel through individuals He wishes to save or damn.

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Romans 9

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Israel wasn't a vessel of dishonor as you claimed. The true Israel, the remnant of God was made a vessel of honor, and everyone else was made for dishonor and blinded. God sifts Israel through individuals He wishes to save or damn.

National Israel

Rom. 9:27–29 —KJV
“Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.”

Rom. 11:7–9 —KJV
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:”
 

Septextura

Well-known member
National Israel

Rom. 9:27–29 —KJV
“Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.”

Rom. 11:7–9 —KJV
“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:”

Isaiah 45
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
 
T

TomFL

Guest
Isaiah 45
16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
That changes nothing

National Israel was for the most part cut off in Rom 9-11 during the formation of the early church
 

Septextura

Well-known member
That changes nothing

National Israel was for the most part cut off in Rom 9-11 during the formation of the early church

You said Israel was damned as a vessel of dishonor. Did you think the Gentiles are vessels of honor?

Romans 9
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

After my exposition, you've shifted to National Israel vs a Remnant Spiritual Israel. So we are now in agreement.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
What you fail to understand Israel was the clay that showed itself unfit for the noble purpose intended for it and as result God made Israel a vessel of dishonor using it to bring about the crucifixion
Evasion and Rabbit trail. God made some individuals, jew and gentile, vessels of wrath, ordained them, and fits them for destruction. Christ didn't die for such folk.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
theo

Man wants to be independent of Him, and this is the essence of what the Bible calls sin. It is self-exalting pride that seeks to usurp the place of God in our lives; to turn our backs upon Him and take the reins of our lives in our own hands. Sin from the very beginning was the desire to be ‘like God’ and seek our own interests instead of His. As you put it to turn and earthen pot into a golden pot.

Amen, and here we have the man of sin revealed 1 Thess 2:3-4

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
 
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