Christ died for them not appointed to Wrath.

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Do you not know what all means ?

The opposite of some

Christ camne to sdave all that are in the world

John 12:47 (KJV)
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Issue #5: Did Christ Die for “All without Distinction” or “All without Exception”? 21 Calvinists who want to limit the atonement only to the elect have major difficulty with the many NT passages that say Christ died for “all” people or for “the world.” In order to maintain limited atonement and explain away the universal language of “all” in texts like 1 Tim 2: 4– 6, they are forced into an exegetical straitjacket and say something along these lines: “The word ‘all’ in these verses doesn’t mean ‘all people without exception’ but rather ‘all people without distinction.’” Is this a valid argument? No. Attempting to force the meaning of “all without distinction” on the universal texts is to explode them with “grammatical gunpowder,” as Spurgeon said in his critique of John Gill. 22 The “all without distinction” concept gets converted to mean “some of all without distinction.” Thus, “all” becomes “some of all sorts,” an exegetically and hermeneutically unwarranted and, in fact, illegitimate move. With respect to the NT atonement texts that use universal language, the bifurcation of “all without distinction” and “all without exception” is ultimately a distinction without a difference. If I speak of all people without racial, gender, or other distinctions, am I not speaking of all people without exception? Whatever the distinction is and whatever is the scope of the “all” must be supplied by the context. The two phrases simply cannot be compartmentalized linguistically. The distinction is artificial. All Calvinists who want to maintain limited atonement essentially convert the “all” in texts like 1 Tim 2: 6 to mean “some.”....

1 Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV)
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



In 1 Tim 2: 4– 6, Paul’s intent is to say that Jesus is the Savior of all people without distinction, which simply also means all people without exception. 23
Allen, David L.. The Atonement (Kindle Locations 5223-5235). B&H Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Does this include those who died lost before the cross?
 
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TomFL

Guest
Before the cross, are they included in "all men"

The verse is speaking of what happens after Christ is lifted up

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

those who died as unbelievers before the cross are not included here
 
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TomFL

Guest
but all ‘men’ aren’t the men He created…

and all men on this current earth are not from God.

Why would He draw anyone of the satan line?

No point. different realm and nature.

by all He means His.
Do you have a verse supporting your position ?
 
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TomFL

Guest
all only refers to adam souls

the word ‘men’ does not appear, in greek…only ‘all’ does. He was talking to souls of Him and referring to them. He was not talking about any others.

kjv is corrupt.
Pas (All) is masculine in the text hence all men

John 12:32 (RSV)
32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 12:32 (ASV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

John 12:32 (CSBBible)
32 As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.”

John 12:32 (ESV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 12:32 (MLB)
32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

John 12:32 (NET1)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people[67] to myself.”

John 12:32 (NASB77)
32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

John 12:32 (NIV2011)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 12:32 (NJB)
32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all people to myself.'

John 12:32 (NKJV)
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

John 12:32 (NRSV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

John 12:32 (MaceNT)
32 as for me, when I shall be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me.

John 12:32 (MOFF)
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 12:32 (WEY)
32 And I— if I am lifted up from the earth—will draw all men to me."
 
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TomFL

Guest
the same one you used, but not kjv, an interlinear to view the greek. no word men exists there.

i used scripture4all

john 12:32.

greek has no word there ‘men’

the context is He talking to and of believing adam souls
Again Pas is masculine implying men

but do you have a scripture verse showing Satan's line which appeared to of Adam but were not
 
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TomFL

Guest
i don’t go by implied.

its just all

anyway it only means all His souls.

lots of verses, example the enmity of satan’s seed etc…

after adam fell

or esau i hated. etc.
Esau I hated does not help your position

It refers to Edom years after Esau lived see Malachi 1


Malachi 1:1-4 (KJV)
1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Edom refused Israel passage during the exodus and attacked them

Finally

Where is you proof that Satans seen are not descended from Adam
 
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TomFL

Guest
esau is a type
just as egypt is a type.

satan spirits are not descended from adam.

one clue is that satan was already there before the garden.

and were demons.

God does not create ugly harsh monsters.
That does nothing at all to show Esau was of Satan's line and not descended from Adam

or that any men were not descended from Adam
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
you can believe what you like... but that won't make it true.
Christians defend the Veracity of the Bible; that it is the Truth. There is an Apology for that Defense; without the Bible we only have an Opinion, but with the Bible we have a Case...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The mistake @Dizerner is making (and he won't ever admit it) is that we are not saying people turn the message into bad news, because that message can never be changed. That is what he is trying to argue, but it is a straw man argument because that isn't what we are saying nor are we implying it in what we are saying.

The thing I am arguing, and of which I think you agree, is that we are saying the gospel isn't good news TO all people who hear it, as I demonstrated in 2 Corinthians 2:12-17 &c. Acts missionary endeavors also show this to be true, which is why Paul and others were persecuted over it.

In 1912, the RMS Titanic hit an iceberg, and sank.
1500 people lost their lives.
700 people were saved.

People thought that the fact that 700 people were saved, was "good news!"
Arminians are the kind of people who would say it WASN'T "good news", unless the other 1500 were saved as well (or were at least offered a seat on a life boat).
 
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TomFL

Guest
In 1912, the RMS Titanic hit an iceberg, and sank.
1500 people lost their lives.
700 people were saved.

People thought that the fact that 700 people were saved, was "good news!"
Arminians are the kind of people who would say it WASN'T "good news", unless the other 1500 were saved as well (or were at least offered a seat on a life boat).
Except in Calvinism the good news is you were elect before the foundation of the world

which is never found in the bible as the gospel
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Except in Calvinism the good news is you were elect before the foundation of the world

which is never found in the bible as the gospel

Eph. 1:4 even as he chose (Greek, "elected") us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

2Th. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and sglorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
John 12:32 (RSV)
32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Let's have SCRIPTURE interpret Scripture:

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Did the Lamb redeem "all individuals"?
Or did the Lamb redeem (some) individuals out of "all groups"?

Did "every" modify "us"?
Or did "every" modify "kindred", and "tongue", and "people", and "nation"?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
In I Thessalonians, Paul joins the two doctrines together thus: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, (as others) but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ”(5:9). In II Thessalonians, he again joins the two together in an extensive context covering the whole of chapter 2. Of the reprobate, he declares the “man of sin” the “son of perdition” would deceive the reprobate saying: “ . .. and for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (Verses 11-12), and: “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the TRUTH: whereunto HE CALLED YOU by our gospel, to obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (verses 13-14). Thus, there is no escaping the truth of both election and reprobation. by scp

God has purposely sent the reprobate a strong delusion to believe a lie, that they may be damned ! Christ didnt die for such whom God is set against them believing the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus.
 
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TomFL

Guest
Let's have SCRIPTURE interpret Scripture:

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Did the Lamb redeem "all individuals"?
Or did the Lamb redeem (some) individuals out of "all groups"?

Did "every" modify "us"?
Or did "every" modify "kindred", and "tongue", and "people", and "nation"?

Sorry faulty methodology

You are comparing atonement applied - speaking of those redeemed through faith in Christ

with the extent of of the atonement those Christ died for that may be saved upon faith

Your basic failure is to miss the provisional nature of the atonement

John 3:14-18 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Christ is given to the world but only those who believe in the world obtain eternal life
 
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TomFL

Guest
its there, over and over in scripture.

i know the moderns have now made it so that scripture is all
tame and harmless and no evil beings exist anymore..
not even satan really...

its all just shopping. everything has to be handed to us.

I have the version of translation that I am doing with a scholar..
but I'm not self promoting.

If you read greek you can find it.

For example, the greek god apollo, a satanic being/construct = abbadon.


and yes, it's all been tamed and some excuse has been given for why those
type of things are found..

such as the evil goddess in OT, etc. Isis...and Ishtar.

But yes, many go ahead and ignore that these are more than just names some
human adopted... instead they adopt intellectualized
stances and as 'experts' attempt to neutralize scripture.

I did not vet the links line by line. Some links I would probably not agree with..
but here is a start.
Where is is stated there exists men not demons or false Gods which are not descended from Adam
 
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