Christ our Substitute - How?

As a lost pagan...what words of wisdom do you have?
I don't bow nor worship a man. That is idolatry.

It's interesting that all knees will bow and tongue confess the true God. Jesus has knees and a tongue. It's crystal clear your dilemma.
 
Genesis 3:15 speaks specifically of the ovum/seed of the woman, not simply a woman having offspring.

The Hebrew zera doesn't mean ovum. If it did, then Rebecca as previously shown had a virginal birth as well.

Why is that?

To produce a sinless body the ovum could not be fertilized by a male sperm.
Mary wasn't born sinless so in your logic she transfers sin to Jesus.

For it was through Adam that sin entered the world. The male sperm transfers the sin nature to all of us.
Eve sinned as well.

That is why Jesus could have no human father.
Mary being a virgin by virtue did not make Jesus sinless.
Mary could have been a woman of the street and still Jesus could have had been born with a sinless body.
Avoiding the male sperm is what achieved that goal.
That is why it was God who had to fertilize the seed/ovum of Mary by supplying pristine genetic material.
Not allowing for of the typical male sperm to do the job which would have given Jesus a sin nature in his body...

So be it....
Your logic fails miserably.

Now go verbally spit on that....
I have, several times.
 
If He sinned just once while bearing our sins? Everything would have changed in that regard,.,,,
But he we wasn't sinless. Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7 point to that, as well as Jesus admitting he wasn't good.

He being sinless, was the only one qualified to bear our sins and survive... He was able to pay the penalty for those sins by proxy. And, because he never sinned? To be restored after the last sin of mankind produced its spiritual death.
Sorry, he wasn't sinless.

Note Isaiah 53:9 .

You will see the word "death," but it is in the intensive plural in the Hebrew
Not simply one death. He died many deaths (billions) in our place.
And they assigned Him a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death(s),
although He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth. Isaiah 53:9​
A couple of points. The NT mentions Jesus died once, so you're debunked. 2nd, nothing in Isa 53 mentions the servant is sinless.

Jesus was assigned the grave with criminals - put on their crosses...
But, he was given the burial of a rich man. That was highly irregular,
For people who died on Roman crosses were expected to have burials of obscurity.
Often to be disposed of in some city dump.
But, not Jesus.
Isaiah by God's power of prophesy, nailed it!

Isaiah 53 has been the nemesis of Jews who wish to fight the truth about Jesus.
Actually, you're debunked.
 
If He sinned just once while bearing our sins? Everything would have changed in that regard,.,,,
But he we wasn't sinless. Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7 point to that, as well as Jesus admitting he wasn't good.

He being sinless, was the only one qualified to bear our sins and survive... He was able to pay the penalty for those sins by proxy. And, because he never sinned? To be restored after the last sin of mankind produced its spiritual death.
Sorry, he wasn't sinless.

Note Isaiah 53:9 .

You will see the word "death," but it is in the intensive plural in the Hebrew
Not simply one death. He died many deaths (billions) in our place.
And they assigned Him a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death(s),
although He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth. Isaiah 53:9​
A couple of points. The NT mentions Jesus died once, so you're debunked. 2nd, nothing in Isa 53 mentions the servant is sinless.

Jesus was assigned the grave with criminals - put on their crosses...
But, he was given the burial of a rich man. That was highly irregular,
For people who died on Roman crosses were expected to have burials of obscurity.
Often to be disposed of in some city dump.
But, not Jesus.
Isaiah by God's power of prophesy, nailed it!

Isaiah 53 has been the nemesis of Jews who wish to fight the truth about Jesus.
Actually, you're debunked.
 
I don't bow nor worship a man. That is idolatry.

It's interesting that all knees will bow and tongue confess the true God. Jesus has knees and a tongue. It's crystal clear your dilemma.
I'll make it big for you soyou don't miss it.

Phil 2:10 .... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 

The Hebrew zera doesn't mean ovum. If it did, then Rebecca as previously shown had a virginal birth as well.

The Hebrew noun זרע (zeraʿ ) means "seed." Typically, זרע (zeraʿ ) refers to the seeds of plants, as in Genesis 1:11.

Chapter and verse about Rebecca would be appreciated.

Also, Genesis 3:15 speaks of the seed of a woman rather than the seed of a man.
Genealogies such as those found in Genesis 5 referred to the man's offspring, not a woman's.
So it was an unconventional way of expressing an offspring just the same...

shalom....
 
But he we wasn't sinless. Luke 2:52 and Hebrews 5:7 point to that, as well as Jesus admitting he wasn't good.
Amen Jesus was made to be sin, those of his day made him a sinner by their laws as a blasphemer, sinner and had him crucified for being that sinner against their laws for tradition that Jesus once was of himself and taught their laws in the empale even from a young age.

Even Jesus lot control of his himself when he went into a rage and turned over tables and chairs and made a whip and drove people out from that temple.

I bet they didnt think to much of his holiness.

Funny how religious minds today cannot relate to Jesus being a simple man who was anointed of God. And the read for that is they dont know what it is to be anointed of God themselves.
Sorry, he wasn't sinless.


A couple of points. The NT mentions Jesus died once, so you're debunked. 2nd, nothing in Isa 53 mentions the servant is sinless.
And they think Christ died along with Jesus. They cannot relate to Christ being Gods Spirit in man, anointed of Gods same disposition of mind, which is only dead because they cant be alive themselves in God to be His anointed that that person of Christ who is.
Actually, you're debunked.
He won't be able to see it. He thinks that means sleeping on there floor. Which is a typical immature reply from so called christian attitudes
 
I'll make it big for you soyou don't miss it.

Phil 2:10 .... at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The original says:

Isa 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

No Jesus mentioned above in Isaiah. But we do know without a doubt Jesus has two knees and a tongue. So, Jesus will fulfill prophecy by bowing to his God. It's beautiful 😍.
 
The Hebrew noun זרע (zeraʿ ) means "seed." Typically, זרע (zeraʿ ) refers to the seeds of plants, as in Genesis 1:11.
Right, it doesn't mean ovum.

Chapter and verse about Rebecca would be appreciated.
Sure. Gen 24:60:

And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her: 'Our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of ten thousands, and let thy seed possess the gate of those that hate them.'

BTW, the verse was previously given to you. It would if you read what is given to you.

Also, Genesis 3:15 speaks of the seed of a woman rather than the seed of a man.
Because women have descendants as well. Nothing special here.

Genealogies such as those found in Genesis 5 referred to the man's offspring, not a woman's.
So it was an unconventional way of expressing an offspring just the same...
Debunked above.

shalom....
Come home, Gene.
 
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To address your questions directly:
  1. The claim is Christ is the substitute for collection of saints (or something to that effect) and he took the penalty that the saints were supposed to take.
    • The outstanding question of this entire thread and the one everybody is avoiding is what penalty did Christ suffer in place of the saints?
    • If the doctrine of substitution is "life for life" nobody has positively affirmed that yet and have rejected the idea when I suggested it, so I have no idea if it is "life for life" "soul for soul" "spirit for spirit" or "iphone for iphone". Which points to the vacuousness of the doctrine of substitution.
  2. There is no benefit gained to penalize the substitute if the person they are being penalized in place of is also penalized. So yes, if the substitute took the penalty of death in place of somebody else, then by definition the person being substituted for would not suffer the penalty of death and would not die.
I agree that the way atonement is taught today has been corrupted. In its extreme form has become human sacrifice, in the sense, God killed a human to appease his wrath, kind of like when the barbarians threw a human into a volcano to appease God’s wrath. Nonsense!

If I were to try and get into Paul’s head this is how I see it.

The anointed Yeshua is an archetype for all pious, virtuous souls. What we say of him applies to all because allegedly God has chosen him to lead all. He is the mountain in the middle that ascends to heaven. The morningstar on the fifth day. Therefore, when his flesh dies for sin, our flesh dies for sin. When christ rises in him, the christ rises in us. Consequently, he is the symbol for atonement for us all.

In answer to your question, what penalty did he suffer in place of the saints? None, for he represents us all rather than a replacement for us all. We all pay the price for sin in our own flesh, just as he did. But we are saved in the same way he was saved, by the rising holy spirit within him. That is what christ is, the Holy Spirit. Christ is the anointing upon a human, rising in a human, descending upon a human, giving him Wisdom, sanctifying the flesh through good works. Christ is the divine nature of the Most High within man, and Yeshua is the archetype or symbol for what happens in each of us. This is how we are saved.
 
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In answer to your question, what penalty did he suffer in place of the saints? None, for he represents us all rather than a replacement for us all. We all pay the price for sin in our own flesh, just as he did. But we are saved in the same way he was saved,

A breath of fresh air. A direct answer to the question. Thanks.
 
The original says:

Isa 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

No Jesus mentioned above in Isaiah. But we do know without a doubt Jesus has two knees and a tongue. So, Jesus will fulfill prophecy by bowing to his God. It's beautiful 😍.
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

You will bow before Jesus and while on your knees confess Jesus as Lord. Whether this happens when you are presented before the Great White Throne or later on....I don't know.
 
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
They understood he wasn't the God.

9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee:
I am God? But thou art man, and not God, In the hand of them that defile thee.
10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers; For I have spoken, saith the Lord GOD.

Without a doubt. You die like a man you are a man. Come out of your idolatry CrowCross.

You will bow before Jesus and while on your knees confess Jesus as Lord. Whether this happens when you are presented before the Great White Throne or later on....I don't know.
Wrong. Jesus has knees and a tongue and will bow himself. You can't avoid it and neither will he.
 
They understood he wasn't the God.




Wrong. Jesus has knees and a tongue and will bow himself. You can't avoid it and neither will he.
Jesus is God and Savior. It is an Anti-Christ like you who would deny that truth....and will be thrown into Hell because of your disbelief. In fact YOU already stand condemned.

Judgement is coming for you...you have been warned.
 
Jesus is God and Savior. It is an Anti-Christ like you who would deny that truth....and will be thrown into Hell because of your disbelief. In fact YOU already stand condemned.

Judgement is coming for you...you have been warned.
9Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee:
I am God? But thou art man, and not God, In the hand of them that defile thee.
10Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers; For I have spoken, saith the Lord GOD.

Get out of your idolatry.
 
Jesus is God and Savior. It is an Anti-Christ like you who would deny that truth....and will be thrown into Hell because of your disbelief. In fact YOU already stand condemned.

Judgement is coming for you...you have been warned.
Actually Jesus was Gods child, His son in whom God sent to lead you to Gods salvation. Jesus can save you if you would follow him to there One who saved him from the laws of the Jewish belief system.

Why dont you believe that God sent Jesus as Jesus Said God did? What causes you to call him s liar and God didnt send Jesus to show you the way?

You talk about antichrist, anyone who does not follow Jesus to the Father for Him to be in you and you I nHim as Jesus was in Hims, is antichrist and refuses to follow Jesus to the Father.

Thrown into hell? The kingdom of God, heaven and hell that he created, does not come with observation, one or the other is within you this day. See Jesus a=bout that in Luke 17;20-21.

If you are not exactly as Jesus was in the Father, then you live in His hell this day. For the One who can save you from it is at your door knocking this day and any man who will let Him in He will come to you and sup with you and be in you just as He came to Jesus in Matt 3:16, Adam in Gen 3;22, Abraham, Moses 120.

That antichrist spirit that you house will not allow God to come to you is the real truth here.
 
Right, it doesn't mean ovum.
How would they have said "ovum" in the Hebrew at that time?
Just like they had no word yet invented to mean 'emotions.'


And he lifteth up his eyes, and seeth Benjamin his brother, his mother's son, and saith,
`Is this your young brother, of whom ye have spoken unto me?' and he saith, `God favour thee, my son.'
And Joseph hasteth, for his bowels have been moved for his brother, and he seeketh to weep,
and entereth the inner chamber, and weepeth there;
and he washeth his face, and goeth out, and refraineth himself, and saith, `Place bread.'
Genesis 43:29-31

Now? What were you saying about "ovum?"



Sure. Gen 24:60:

And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her: 'Our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of ten thousands, and let thy seed possess the gate of those that hate them.'

BTW, the verse was previously given to you. It would if you read what is given to you.


Because women have descendants as well. Nothing special here.


Debunked above.


Come home, Gene.

Context dictates the meaning when more than one meaning is possible..... Genesis 24:60 speaks of *thousands." "Offspring."
But, Genesis 3:15 speaks of a singular person.
"He will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”"

You need to be circumcised again.



No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart,
by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people,
but from God." Romans 2:29​

I do not seek your approval. If God could save this Jew? And, others I know?
We might be called to appear as evidence to show you that you will be without excuse....


Well,,,, that's the way it goes.
I know how impossible it seems to you at this time.
After being born again for ten years I still thought of myself as being a Jew.
Its when I began reading the Bible (aside from I learned in Hebrew School and synagogue) that I realized that God saved me in spite of my ignorance...
 
How would they have said "ovum" in the Hebrew at that time?
It really doesn't matter because the verses in question is only talking about descendants.


Just like they had no word yet invented to mean 'emotions.'
Actually, the term nephesh was used for that.

And he lifteth up his eyes, and seeth Benjamin his brother, his mother's son, and saith,
`Is this your young brother, of whom ye have spoken unto me?' and he saith, `God favour thee, my son.'
And Joseph hasteth, for his bowels have been moved for his brother, and he seeketh to weep,
and entereth the inner chamber, and weepeth there;
and he washeth his face, and goeth out, and refraineth himself, and saith, `Place bread.'
Genesis 43:29-31
Yep, sometimes emotions are expressed in a different way.

Now? What were you saying about "ovum?"
Ovum isn't addressed in Gen 3:15.

Context dictates the meaning when more than one meaning is possible..... Genesis 24:60 speaks of *thousands." "Offspring."
Zera, same term as below. BTW, Rebecca didn't have thousands herself.

But, Genesis 3:15 speaks of a singular person.
"He will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”"
Yes, Israel would. The context is Eve and the human race comes from her.

You need to be circumcised again.
Once is enough.

No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart,
by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people,
but from God." Romans 2:29​
The words of an apostate like Paul don't carry much weight.

I do not seek your approval. If God could save this Jew? And, others I know?
We might be called to appear as evidence to show you that you will be without excuse....
Likewise.

Well,,,, that's the way it goes.
I know how impossible it seems to you at this time.
After being born again for ten years I still thought of myself as being a Jew.
Its when I began reading the Bible that I realized that God saved me in spite of my ignorance...
Come home, Gene.
 
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