Christ received life from God at John 1:4 and 5:26 according to Robertson

Gryllus Maior

Active member
Yes, a more parallel example is John 3:26



There are many such examples. Had apostle John meant to say that the Logos was with God, he would have written the following:

καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν μετὰ τοῦ θεοῦ

or,

καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν σὺν τῷ θεῷ

By the way, Trapeza harps alot about how πρός with accusative can be an idiomatic way of saying "to stay at someone's house," but it is actually παρά with dative which can denote that --

  1. (+ dative)
    1. at, beside, by, near
    2. μένειν παρά τισίménein pará tisí ― to stay at someone's house/home
You've been corrected on this so many times I've lost count. You don't know the language much above the alphabet so stop pretending that you do.
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
You've been corrected on this so many times I've lost count. You don't know the language much above the alphabet so stop pretending that you do.
Virtually every single one of your posts in this thread has been like this one, -- without any attempt at engaging the topic at hand, either with me or with Roger.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
The question is what is happening with the verb. In these three cases , all of the verbs deal with motion—φέρειν “bring, carry,” ἄγειν “bring, lead,” and ἰέναι “go.”


The case that you mention here, however, is not a verb of motion (εἶναι “to be”). It is in this case (verbs that do not indicate motion or speech) that the preposition takes on the meaning of “at,” “by,” or “near.” In this specific verse, πρὸς ἑσπέραν ἐστίν means “it is near evening.”

That's one possibility but not the only one.

For example:

NASB 1995
But they urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them.

There is that 't' word that makes you nauseous.

My point is twofold. Toward is a perfectly good rendering of προς + acc. and it's possible for a stative verb to take second place to the natural sense of movement towards the accusative object.

It's not suited for describing being "in" something. That's a different preposition. All the preposition charts show it as moving towards it's object.

Like Clement of Alexandria I see John 1:1b as when the Word became the Son. I believe I supplied you with that example already.





This is what we would expect with verbs like εἶναι “to be” and μεῖναι “to remain.” This is why I specifically said that πρὸς τὸν θεόν means “at God’s house,” since simply “at God” means little in English (though it is meaningful in both Hebrew [אֵ֫צֶל אֱלֹהִים] and in German [bei Gott]). It makes sense in Greek, too, but in English we add that it was at their house rather than at them. It means “at the place where God dwells.” It means that the Logoswas in the spiritual realm, in the realm of God, in heaven... and then later it entered our world and “became flesh.”
 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
Toward is a perfectly good rendering of προς + acc. and it's possible for a stative verb to take second place to the natural sense of movement towards the accusative object.

It's not suited for describing being "in" something. That's a different preposition. All the preposition charts show it as moving towards it's object.

Like Clement of Alexandria I see John 1:1b as when the Word became the Son. I believe I supplied you with that example already.
You're right. "Facing" is just another way of saying the same. This fella denies that πρός with the accusative can mean "facing." What can I say ?

Here is Herbert Smyth.


3. πρός with the Accusative a. Local (direction toward or to, strictly fronting, facing): ““ὑ_μᾶς ἄξομεν πρὸς αὐτούς” we will lead you to them” X. A. 7.6.6, πρὸς νότον (toward the) south T. 3.6, ““ἰέναι πρὸς τοὺς πολεμίους” to go against the enemy” X. A. 2.6.10.

 

The Real John Milton

Well-known member
This is what we would expect with verbs like εἶναι “to be” and μεῖναι “to remain.” This is why I specifically said that πρὸς τὸν θεόν means “at God’s house,” since simply “at God” means little in English (though it is meaningful in both Hebrew [אֵ֫צֶל אֱלֹהִים] and in German [bei Gott]). It makes sense in Greek, too, but in English we add that it was at their house rather than at them. It means “at the place where God dwells.” It means that the Logoswas in the spiritual realm, in the realm of God, in heaven... and then later it entered our world and “became flesh.”

This is crazy talk. I wonder if he is on something when writing such stuff.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
This is crazy talk. Sometimes I think he is smoking something when writing his posts. I may just be right.
There is only one thing J 1:1 says the Word was "in" and that is "the beginning."

And it never says that God was in the beginning. God cannot be "in" what He created. I consider being in the beginning to be in the sphere of created things.

John said at Revelation 3:14 that the Son was the beginning of creation of God and BDAG says it means first-created.

It's not reasonable to say that God is enclosed "in" anything. But the Word was.
 
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