Theo1689
Well-known member
Actually, it's primarily NON-Calvinists who use this term.
Calvinists don't believe in a "potential Saviour".
Words already have meaning.
Has nobody ever told you that?
Christ the risen Saviour, not potential Saviour !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Actually, it's primarily NON-Calvinists who use this term.
Calvinists don't believe in a "potential Saviour".
Words already have meaning.
Has nobody ever told you that?
Tom noted "They will all be taught BY GOD".
It is how God draws, by teaching them.
These are the verses
John 6:44–45 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”
Do you have any proof of error in what i stated
This is about CHRIST drawing people.
John 6:44 is about the FATHER drawing people.
If you recognize that they are not the same person, then you understand that they are not talking about the same thing.
If you don't recognize that they are different persons, that makes you a heretic.
You have been CORRECTED.
So you need to ACCEPT CORRECTION.
You totally ignored everything i stated about the economy before the cross and after the cross
Jn 6:44 was before the cross
Before the cross God was drawing men to jesus
John 12:32 after the cross
Christ was drawing all men to himself
we live in an era after the cross
John 12:32 is how we should be looking at soteriology
not John 6:44
So correct your own errors
brightfame52
Well-known member
What does the op say?
Sethproton
Well-known member
I went back and I read it again. I did not see any definition of the term "potential savior" Is it really that hard for you just to write a simple definition to me?
zerinus
Well-known member
You are hoping against hope! Ask him to explain what this verse means, and Why:
1 Corinthians 15:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ask him to tell you what is the meaning of the first all, and the meaning of the second all; and if they are not the same, what is the contextual evidence for the difference?
Theo1689
Well-known member
Well, there are two reasons to show your error:
1) The whole of 1 Cor. 15 (if you start reading back in v.1, instead of ripping it out of context), is speaking of the ELECT, of BELIEVERS, of the regenerate. So "all" (of the elect) all die, and "all" (of the elect) shall be made alive.
2) The second contextual clue is that the first "all" is QUALIFIED by "in Adam", and the second "all" is qualified by "in Christ", so there is no reason to make them mean the exact same group.
Sethproton
Well-known member
All of us humans are IN Adam, but not all of us humans are IN Christ. All of us humans are dying/will die, and all of us, who are in Christ shall be made alive.
zerinus
Well-known member
Nice try, except that the context does not permit such a distinction. The context does not permit a distinction to be made between the first all and the second all. In both cases the all refers to the same group of people.
Sethproton
Well-known member
Based on what logic of grammar?
zerinus
Well-known member
Because that is the most obvious, logical, and grammatical reading of the text:
"For AS in Adam all die, even SO in Christ shall all be made alive."
The grammatical structure of the sentence requires that the second "all" is identical with the first "all".
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Sethproton
Well-known member
Friend, that is no answer. All you are saying is that is what you want it to mean. You are unable to state a single grammatical or logical reason for your interpretation. Instead, it is your doctrine that dictates what the verse means.
And in a sense it is. All in their respective categories
All who are in Christ are made alive
and all in Adam died
all men are in fact in Adam
Not all men however are in Christ
Being in Christ is the remedy for death
outside of Christ which many are there is no remedy for death
verse 23 makes it clear
1 Cor. 15:23 —KJV
“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”
It is only those in Christ who are made alive
zerinus
Well-known member
I could say the same about you, and my case would stronger. But let us put grammar aside for a moment, look at it from a purely theoretical point of view. Did in Adam all die? They did! Was Adam immortal when he was in the garden of Eden? He was. Did he become mortal after Fall? He did: "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19). Was that the cause of all mankind becoming mortal, subject to death? It was. Will all mankind, without exception, become immortal again someday? They will. Is that biblical? Yes. What is the biblical word used for that immortality? It is called the resurrection. Is resurrection universal? It is. Will all mankind be resurrected someday without exception, never to die again? Yes. What is the cause of their resurrection? The Atonement of Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection, and the life" (John 11:25). Had it not been for the Atonement, would anyone have been resurrected? Not one! Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, will everyone be resurrected? Yes! Is there anyone left out, forgotten about, who will not be resurrected? Not one! Was it because of the Atonement that all of this happens? Yes! Had it not been for the Atonement, would any of this happened? Not one! So there is a correct theological sense in which to say that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" in a very literal, symmetrical sense; the first all being identical in meaning to the second all.
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That is all shot down by
1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”
That is it
Though the wicked are resurrected it is not termed being made alive
Beloved Daughter
Well-known member
Why not? You do this almost every time you post.
Beloved Daughter
Well-known member
What EXACTLY are you saying? I would not expect anything from a Mormon. Mormons reject the gospel of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 6:14
The Temple of the Living God
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
zerinus
Well-known member
Not at all. The whole passage is about the resurrection. What that verse is saying is that the resurrection takes place in stages. It doesn't happen all at once. Not everybody will be resurrected at the same time. There were some who were resurrected immediately after the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 27:
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium. But all will resurrected in the end.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ has two kinds of salvific effects: Firstly, it redeems all mankind unconditionally from the effect of the Fall. No one will be punished for Adam's sin. It wasn't my fault that Adam sinned, and justice demands that I should be held accountable for it either. Everyone is held accountable for his own sin, not for anybody else's sin. So that aspect of the Atonement unconditional and universal. Secondly the Atonement also redeems all of mankind from their own individual sins on condition of faith and repentance. The offer is made to all without exception. But we have the choice to accept it through faith and repentance or not. That is the most obvious meaning of the biblical text. And no one is "predestined," and no one is "unconditionally elected".
Why you speak of predestined or unconditionally elect is a mystery to me
What has that to do with anything i stated ?
Now lets look at
1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”
how many resurrections does it show
Compare it to what you stated
Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.
Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection
You have three
scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day
John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””
John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””
One resurrection on the last day
zerinus
Well-known member
Since this is the Calvinism forum, I am addressing my comments to Calvinists who may be reading as well.
Are you suggesting that Matthew 27:52-53 is not true?
Well I am not a Calvinist
and you ignored every scripture I posted
Now lets look at
1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”
how many resurrections does it show
Compare it to what you stated
Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.
Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection
You have three
scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day
John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.
John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””
John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””
One resurrection on the last day
and Matthew 27:52 says nothing about a resurrection
and there is no evidence that is more than a resuscitation
Like Lazarus who was made alive but would die again
BTW Mat 27:52 has nothing to do with any of the three resurrections you held to