Christ the risen Saviour, not potential Saviour !

Theo1689

Well-known member
I read your OP. You talk about a potential savior but you never define your term. Since it is really only Calvinists who regularly use this term,

Actually, it's primarily NON-Calvinists who use this term.
Calvinists don't believe in a "potential Saviour".

it would facilitate conversation if you would include a definition of what it is.

Words already have meaning.
Has nobody ever told you that?
 

TomFL

Well-known member



Tom noted "They will all be taught BY GOD".
It is how God draws, by teaching them.

You want to (again) make man the determiner, if man "chooses" to "hear", and "chooses" to learn", then God will draw them. That is NOT what the Scriptures teach.
These are the verses

John 6:44–45 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—”

Do you have any proof of error in what i stated



This is about CHRIST drawing people.
John 6:44 is about the FATHER drawing people.

If you recognize that they are not the same person, then you understand that they are not talking about the same thing.
If you don't recognize that they are different persons, that makes you a heretic.

You have been CORRECTED.
So you need to ACCEPT CORRECTION. ;)

You totally ignored everything i stated about the economy before the cross and after the cross

Jn 6:44 was before the cross

Before the cross God was drawing men to jesus

John 12:32 after the cross

Christ was drawing all men to himself

we live in an era after the cross

John 12:32 is how we should be looking at soteriology

not John 6:44

So correct your own errors
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I went back and I read it again. I did not see any definition of the term "potential savior" Is it really that hard for you just to write a simple definition to me?
You are hoping against hope! Ask him to explain what this verse means, and Why:

1 Corinthians 15:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Ask him to tell you what is the meaning of the first all, and the meaning of the second all; and if they are not the same, what is the contextual evidence for the difference?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You are hoping against hope! Ask him to explain what this verse means, and Why:

1 Corinthians 15:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Ask him to tell you what is the meaning of the first all, and the meaning of the second all; and if they are not the same, what is the contextual evidence for the difference?

Well, there are two reasons to show your error:

1) The whole of 1 Cor. 15 (if you start reading back in v.1, instead of ripping it out of context), is speaking of the ELECT, of BELIEVERS, of the regenerate. So "all" (of the elect) all die, and "all" (of the elect) shall be made alive.

2) The second contextual clue is that the first "all" is QUALIFIED by "in Adam", and the second "all" is qualified by "in Christ", so there is no reason to make them mean the exact same group.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
You are hoping against hope! Ask him to explain what this verse means, and Why:

1 Corinthians 15:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Ask him to tell you what is the meaning of the first all, and the meaning of the second all; and if they are not the same, what is the contextual evidence for the difference?
All of us humans are IN Adam, but not all of us humans are IN Christ. All of us humans are dying/will die, and all of us, who are in Christ shall be made alive.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
All of us humans are IN Adam, but not all of us humans are IN Christ. All of us humans are dying/will die, and all of us, who are in Christ shall be made alive.
Nice try, except that the context does not permit such a distinction. The context does not permit a distinction to be made between the first all and the second all. In both cases the all refers to the same group of people.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Nice try, except that the context does not permit such a distinction. The context does not permit a distinction to be made between the first all and the second all. In both cases the all refers to the same group of people.
Based on what logic of grammar?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Based on what logic of grammar?
Because that is the most obvious, logical, and grammatical reading of the text:

"For AS in Adam all die, even SO in Christ shall all be made alive."

The grammatical structure of the sentence requires that the second "all" is identical with the first "all".
 
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Sethproton

Well-known member
Because that is the most obvious, logical, and grammatical reading of the text:

"For AS in Adam all die, even SO in Christ shall all be made alive."

The grammatical structure of the sentence requires that the second "all" is identical with the first "all".
Friend, that is no answer. All you are saying is that is what you want it to mean. You are unable to state a single grammatical or logical reason for your interpretation. Instead, it is your doctrine that dictates what the verse means.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Because that is the most obvious, logical, and grammatical reading of the text:

"For AS in Adam all die, even SO in Christ shall all be made alive."

The grammatical structure of the sentence requires that the second "all" is identical with the first "all".
And in a sense it is. All in their respective categories


All who are in Christ are made alive

and all in Adam died

all men are in fact in Adam

Not all men however are in Christ

Being in Christ is the remedy for death

outside of Christ which many are there is no remedy for death

verse 23 makes it clear

1 Cor. 15:23 —KJV
“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.”

It is only those in Christ who are made alive
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Friend, that is no answer. All you are saying is that is what you want it to mean. You are unable to state a single grammatical or logical reason for your interpretation. Instead, it is your doctrine that dictates what the verse means.
I could say the same about you, and my case would stronger. But let us put grammar aside for a moment, look at it from a purely theoretical point of view. Did in Adam all die? They did! Was Adam immortal when he was in the garden of Eden? He was. Did he become mortal after Fall? He did: "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19). Was that the cause of all mankind becoming mortal, subject to death? It was. Will all mankind, without exception, become immortal again someday? They will. Is that biblical? Yes. What is the biblical word used for that immortality? It is called the resurrection. Is resurrection universal? It is. Will all mankind be resurrected someday without exception, never to die again? Yes. What is the cause of their resurrection? The Atonement of Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection, and the life" (John 11:25). Had it not been for the Atonement, would anyone have been resurrected? Not one! Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, will everyone be resurrected? Yes! Is there anyone left out, forgotten about, who will not be resurrected? Not one! Was it because of the Atonement that all of this happens? Yes! Had it not been for the Atonement, would any of this happened? Not one! So there is a correct theological sense in which to say that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" in a very literal, symmetrical sense; the first all being identical in meaning to the second all.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
I could say the same about you, and my case would stronger. But let us put grammar aside for a moment, look at it from a purely theoretical point of view. Did in Adam all die? They did! Was Adam immortal when he was in the garden of Eden? He was. Did he become mortal after Fall? He did: "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19). Was that the cause of all mankind becoming mortal, subject to death? It was. Will all mankind, without exception, become immortal again someday? They will. Is that biblical? Yes. What is the biblical word used for that immortality? It is called the resurrection. Is resurrection universal? It is. Will all mankind be resurrected someday without exception, never to die again? Yes. What is the cause of their resurrection? The Atonement of Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection, and the life" (John 11:25). Had it not been for the Atonement, would anyone have been resurrected? Not one! Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, will everyone be resurrected? Yes! Is there anyone left out, forgotten about, who will not be resurrected? Not one! Was it because of the Atonement that all of this happens? Yes! Had it not been for the Atonement, would any of this happened? Not one! So there is a correct theological sense in which to say that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" in a very literal, symmetrical sense; the first all being identical in meaning to the second all.
That is all shot down by

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

That is it

Though the wicked are resurrected it is not termed being made alive
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
You said His death caused the chosen to have faith. Are you changing that to say His drawing produces faith?
And again, which scriptures are teaching these things, instead of you claiming they are inferred. You cannot infer this unless it is also taught directly.

Why not? You do this almost every time you post.
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Friend, that is no answer. All you are saying is that is what you want it to mean. You are unable to state a single grammatical or logical reason for your interpretation. Instead, it is your doctrine that dictates what the verse means.

What EXACTLY are you saying? I would not expect anything from a Mormon. Mormons reject the gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:14

The Temple of the Living God​

Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
That is all shot down by

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

That is it

Though the wicked are resurrected it is not termed being made alive
Not at all. The whole passage is about the resurrection. What that verse is saying is that the resurrection takes place in stages. It doesn't happen all at once. Not everybody will be resurrected at the same time. There were some who were resurrected immediately after the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 27:

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium. But all will resurrected in the end.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ has two kinds of salvific effects: Firstly, it redeems all mankind unconditionally from the effect of the Fall. No one will be punished for Adam's sin. It wasn't my fault that Adam sinned, and justice demands that I should be held accountable for it either. Everyone is held accountable for his own sin, not for anybody else's sin. So that aspect of the Atonement unconditional and universal. Secondly the Atonement also redeems all of mankind from their own individual sins on condition of faith and repentance. The offer is made to all without exception. But we have the choice to accept it through faith and repentance or not. That is the most obvious meaning of the biblical text. And no one is "predestined," and no one is "unconditionally elected".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Not at all. The whole passage is about the resurrection. What that verse is saying is that the resurrection takes place in stages. It doesn't happen all at once. Not everybody will be resurrected at the same time. There were some who were resurrected immediately after the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 27:

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium. But all will resurrected in the end.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ has two kinds of salvific effects: Firstly, it redeems all mankind unconditionally from the effect of the Fall. No one will be punished for Adam's sin. It wasn't my fault that Adam sinned, and justice demands that I should be held accountable for it either. Everyone is held accountable for his own sin, not for anybody else's sin. So that aspect of the Atonement unconditional and universal. Secondly the Atonement also redeems all of mankind from their own individual sins on condition of faith and repentance. The offer is made to all without exception. But we have the choice to accept it through faith and repentance or not. That is the most obvious meaning of the biblical text. And no one is "predestined," and no one is "unconditionally elected".
Why you speak of predestined or unconditionally elect is a mystery to me

What has that to do with anything i stated ?

Now lets look at

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Why you speak of predestined or unconditionally elect is a mystery to me

What has that to do with anything i stated ?
Since this is the Calvinism forum, I am addressing my comments to Calvinists who may be reading as well.
Now lets look at

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day
Are you suggesting that Matthew 27:52-53 is not true?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Since this is the Calvinism forum, I am addressing my comments to Calvinists who may be reading as well.

Are you suggesting that Matthew 27:52-53 is not true?
Well I am not a Calvinist

and you ignored every scripture I posted

Now lets look at

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day

and Matthew 27:52 says nothing about a resurrection

and there is no evidence that is more than a resuscitation

Like Lazarus who was made alive but would die again

BTW Mat 27:52 has nothing to do with any of the three resurrections you held to
 
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