Christ the risen Saviour, not potential Saviour !

Sethproton

Well-known member
I could say the same about you, and my case would stronger. But let us put grammar aside for a moment, look at it from a purely theoretical point of view. Did in Adam all die? They did! Was Adam immortal when he was in the garden of Eden? He was. Did he become mortal after Fall? He did: "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Gen. 3:19). Was that the cause of all mankind becoming mortal, subject to death? It was. Will all mankind, without exception, become immortal again someday? They will. Is that biblical? Yes. What is the biblical word used for that immortality? It is called the resurrection. Is resurrection universal? It is. Will all mankind be resurrected someday without exception, never to die again? Yes. What is the cause of their resurrection? The Atonement of Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection, and the life" (John 11:25). Had it not been for the Atonement, would anyone have been resurrected? Not one! Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, will everyone be resurrected? Yes! Is there anyone left out, forgotten about, who will not be resurrected? Not one! Was it because of the Atonement that all of this happens? Yes! Had it not been for the Atonement, would any of this happened? Not one! So there is a correct theological sense in which to say that "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" in a very literal, symmetrical sense; the first all being identical in meaning to the second all.
I am going to go with you on this track about being eternal. I agree that all men will continue on eternally. Some to be with Jesus, some in torment. And it is the way we were created, because of the breath of God in each of us.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
and you ignored every scripture I posted
* * *
scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day
When you have answered my question, I will answer yours: "Are you suggesting that Matthew 27:52-53 is not true?" We also have Revelation 20:5-6, talking about at least two resurrections, a first and a second. Are you seriously telling me that Matt. 27:52-53 and Rev. 20:5-6 are false?
* * *
and Matthew 27:52 says nothing about a resurrection
Of course it does! What a crazy thing to say. What else could it mean for dead people "coming out of their graves," and "appearing to many"? In another passage Jesus identifies the resurrection in these terms: "for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;" ... (John 5:28-29). What is the difference between these and those?
and there is no evidence that is more than a resuscitation

Like Lazarus who was made alive but would die again
Of course they are not the same! Lazarus had been sick. They sent for Jesus to come and heal him. He deliberately waited for three days until Lazarus was dead, in order to demonstrate his ability to even raise him from the dead if required, which is what he did. The long-since ancient dead "Saints," who had died centuries ago, suddenly "coming out of their graves" after the resurrection of Jesus, was to what purpose? So they could say hello and goodbye to everyone, and go back to their graves again? That is a crazy idea if there ever was one.
BTW Mat 27:52 has nothing to do with any of the three resurrections you held to
The Bible suggests that there are two main ones, one before the millennium and one after; but each can have many subcategories, with righteous people (Saints) being resurrected at any time in between.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
I am going to go with you on this track about being eternal. I agree that all men will continue on eternally. Some to be with Jesus, some in torment. And it is the way we were created, because of the breath of God in each of us.
Agreed, thank you.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
When you have answered my question, I will answer yours: "Are you suggesting that Matthew 27:52-53 is not true?" We also have Revelation 20:5-6, talking about at least two resurrections, a first and a second. Are you seriously telling me that Matt. 27:52-53 and Rev. 20:5-6 are false?

Of course it does! What a crazy thing to say. What else could it mean for dead people "coming out of their graves," and "appearing to many"? In another passage Jesus identifies the resurrection in these terms:
"for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;" ... (John 5:28-29). What is the difference between these and those?

Of course they are not the same! Lazarus had been sick. They sent for Jesus to come and heal him. He deliberately waited for three days until Lazarus was dead, in order to demonstrate his ability to even raise him from the dead if required, which is what he did. The long-since ancient dead "Saints," who had died centuries ago, suddenly "coming out of their graves" after the resurrection of Jesus, was to what purpose? So they could say hello and goodbye to everyone, and go back to their graves again? That is a crazy idea if there ever was one.

The Bible suggests that there are two main ones, one before the millennium and one after; but each can have many subcategories, with righteous people (Saints) being resurrected at any time in between.
First i did address Matthew 27:52

and noted two things

One it was not on your list of multiple resurrections

and 2 there is no evidence it was more than a resuscitation rather than a resurrection

A resuscitation allows for another physical death a resurrection does not

Now for what you ignore

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day

that would also allow for an understanding of a resuscitation at Mt 27:2

what is not allowed however is the three resurrections you referred to
 

zerinus

Well-known member
First i did address Matthew 27:52

and noted two things

One it was not on your list of multiple resurrections

and 2 there is no evidence it was more than a resuscitation rather than a resurrection

A resuscitation allows for another physical death a resurrection does not

Now for what you ignore

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day

that would also allow for an understanding of a resuscitation at Mt 27:2

what is not allowed however is the three resurrections you referred to
Address these properly for me, and I will address those:

Matthew 27:

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead
lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
• • •
12 And I saw the dead [after the Millennium], small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


At least two resurrections are mentioned here, quite apart from Matthew 27. Address these, and I will address those.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Address these properly for me, and I will address those:

Matthew 27:

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Revelation 20:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead
lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the
first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
• • •
12 And I saw the dead [after the Millennium], small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


At least two resurrections are mentioned here, quite apart from Matthew 27. Address these, and I will address those.


You should have first addressed the scriptures I gave you

However

Already addressed Mathew

As for revelation it is of a genre of apocalypses. Many things are presented as signs and it is not always clear what the
sign are speaking about

There are a multiplicity of understandings of the book of revelation

Some see it as future, others as historical others in a partial preterist manner and even some hold to a full preterist view

It is a principle of sound hermenuetic you judge the complex by the simple the unclear by the clear

That being the case Revelation is not the correct place to start

Many didactic passages point to but one resurrection

that should be our starting point

example

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day

Add to that the fact resurrection is pictured as at the coming of Christ

1Th 4:15-17



that would also allow for an understanding of a resuscitation at Mt 27:2

what is not allowed however is the three resurrections you referred to


In any case those who hold to a single physical resurrection consider the first resurection to be a spiritual one

as seen here

John 5:25–29 —ESV
“¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

in any case your three or more resurrection are not supported even in Revelation
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You should have first addressed the scriptures I gave you
Nope! I started first.
However

Already addressed Mathew
Which I disagree with. Your interpretation simply has no logical or exegetical merit
As for revelation it is of a genre of apocalypses. Many things are presented as signs and it is not always clear what the
sign are speaking about

There are a multiplicity of understandings of the book of revelation

Some see it as future, others as historical others in a partial preterist manner and even some hold to a full preterist view

It is a principle of sound hermenuetic you judge the complex by the simple the unclear by the clear

That being the case Revelation is not the correct place to start
I disagree. The same rules apply even more to the scriptures you have cited. The expression "that day," especially when used to refer to some future event, is often used in the Bible to refer to an extended period of time:

Deuteronomy 31:

17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.

Isaiah 11:

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Hebrews 1:

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Examples are too numerous to quote, but these are sufficient. In prophetic literature "that day" or "last day" doesn't mean on 24 hour day. And Peter makes it clearest of all:

2 Peter 3:

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Many didactic passages point to but one resurrection

that should be our starting point

example

* * *
One resurrection on the last day
See above.
Add to that the fact resurrection is pictured as at the coming of Christ

1Th 4:15-17

that would also allow for an understanding of a resuscitation at Mt 27:2

what is not allowed however is the three resurrections you referred to
Matthew 27 suggests that there is more than three resurrections.
In any case those who hold to a single physical resurrection consider the first resurection to be a spiritual one

as seen here

John 5:25–29 —ESV
“¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”
I don't see anything spiritual about that; and theological disagreements about eschatology are not an issue for me.
in any case your three or more resurrection are not supported even in Revelation
I have shown you least three, one in Matthew 27, and two in Revelation 20. That is enough as far as I am concerned.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Nope! I started first.

No you did not and you are dodging

I addressewd your Matthew 27 and revelation

and you have yet to deal with the verses I gave

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day

Add to that the fact resurrection is pictured as at the coming of Christ

1Th 4:15-17

I will await your responding in kind





that would also allow for an understanding of a resuscitation at Mt 27:2

what is not allowed however is the three resurrections you referred to
 

zerinus

Well-known member
No you did not and you are dodging

I addressewd your Matthew 27 and revelation

and you have yet to deal with the verses I gave

1 Cor. 15:23 —ESV
“But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.”

how many resurrections does it show

Compare it to what you stated

Others will be resurrected immediately before the Second Coming, others will be resurrected shortly after the Second Coming, and the rest after the Millennium.

Other than Christ scripture here has but one resurrection

You have three

scripture is adamant the resurrection singular is on the last day

John 6:39 And fthis is the will of him who sent me, gthat I should lose nothing of hall that he has given me, but iraise it up on the last day.

John 6:40 —ESV
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

John 6:44 —ESV
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:54 —ESV
“Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 11:24 —ESV
“Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.””

One resurrection on the last day

Add to that the fact resurrection is pictured as at the coming of Christ

1Th 4:15-17

I will await your responding in kind



that would also allow for an understanding of a resuscitation at Mt 27:2

what is not allowed however is the three resurrections you referred to
Already answered. Nothing more to add.
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Plenty of answers, you just didn't like them, because you had no rebuttals. Not a smart debater.
This looks like a personal attack. It's you calling someone "not a smart debater".

From the rules:

Attacking people:
  1. No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member. No negative comments of any sort concerning any board poster/member/moderator/administrator.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
This looks like a personal attack. It's you calling someone "not a smart debater".

From the rules:

Attacking people:
  1. No name-calling, insults, or mockery of a board poster/member. No negative comments of any sort concerning any board poster/member/moderator/administrator.
Aside from which none of his claims were true

He never addressed a single verses
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
Aside from which none of his claims were true

He never addressed a single verses

I read the exchange and you are spot on regarding the offensive post. It's typical of the obfuscation, selective memories of posters who can't support their beliefs with scripture.
 
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