Christian inconsistancy about the Law

Open Heart

Well-known member
Matthew 5:18-19
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Clearly, Jesus taught the Jews to obey the Torah. The Christian church, OTOH, is ambivilent about the Law. This largely has to do with Pauline teaching that circumcision is worthless, that it is up to the individual whether they keep the Shabbat or eat meat offered to idols, and that the law brings a curse. Yet for all their anti-nomianian teachings, Christians don't go around saying that it's okay to murder, steal, etc. Christian doctrine teaches that keeping the law is not necessary for salvation, but that one should nevertheless obey God and be a good decent person.

My problem is that Christians pick and choose what parts of the Law they want to obey and what parts they ignore, and they often don't even agree with each other on this matter.

For example, most Christians would say that they are to keep the 10 commandments, but they don't rest on the seventh day.

I need to clarify before I go on that Judaism itself doesn't teach that non-Jews have to keep the 613 commandments. For example, because the sabbath is observed in order to remember us being delivered from slavery in Egypt, sabbath keeping is one of the commandments that non-Jews need not keep. There ARE universal commandments embedded within the 613, but most of the laws are given to Israel, not to the world.

But Christians have chosen to keep the Torah as part of their canon of scripture. So why, then, do they (most of them) not do things like keep the seventh day a day of rest?

The answer I hear most often is that some laws are moral, and other laws are "ceremonial." Now, clearly, giving a sacrifice at the temple would be "ceremonial." But how do you get the idea that keeping the shabbat is ceremonial? Or the kosher laws, as another example?

It is clear to me that Christians pick and choose what is convenient to observe. Far from observing every jot and tittle, they only keep those laws they feel like.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
My problem is that Christians pick and choose what parts of the Law they want to obey and what parts they ignore, and they often don't even agree with each other on this matter.

Just for clarification...

Are Exodus 19 and 20 HISTORICAL or are they LEGEND?

I say historical.

I think you will say, Don’t know don’t care.

But I would like you to confirm that.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Matthew 5:18-19
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Clearly, Jesus taught the Jews to obey the Torah. The Christian church, OTOH, is ambivilent about the Law. This largely has to do with Pauline teaching that circumcision is worthless, that it is up to the individual whether they keep the Shabbat or eat meat offered to idols, and that the law brings a curse. Yet for all their anti-nomianian teachings, Christians don't go around saying that it's okay to murder, steal, etc. Christian doctrine teaches that keeping the law is not necessary for salvation, but that one should nevertheless obey God and be a good decent person.

My problem is that Christians pick and choose what parts of the Law they want to obey and what parts they ignore, and they often don't even agree with each other on this matter.

For example, most Christians would say that they are to keep the 10 commandments, but they don't rest on the seventh day.

I need to clarify before I go on that Judaism itself doesn't teach that non-Jews have to keep the 613 commandments. For example, because the sabbath is observed in order to remember us being delivered from slavery in Egypt, sabbath keeping is one of the commandments that non-Jews need not keep. There ARE universal commandments embedded within the 613, but most of the laws are given to Israel, not to the world.

But Christians have chosen to keep the Torah as part of their canon of scripture. So why, then, do they (most of them) not do things like keep the seventh day a day of rest?

The answer I hear most often is that some laws are moral, and other laws are "ceremonial." Now, clearly, giving a sacrifice at the temple would be "ceremonial." But how do you get the idea that keeping the shabbat is ceremonial? Or the kosher laws, as another example?

It is clear to me that Christians pick and choose what is convenient to observe. Far from observing every jot and tittle, they only keep those laws they feel like.
The problem is two fold. They don't understand what Paul is presenting, and they conflate the commandments with the ceremonial law/sacrificial law. Their arguments are logically inconsistent and incoherent, even contradictory at times. Ultimately, they have a capricious god who has a double standard.
 

Rachel Redux

Active member
The problem is two fold. They don't understand what Paul is presenting, and they conflate the commandments with the ceremonial law/sacrificial law. Their arguments are logically inconsistent and incoherent, even contradictory at times. Ultimately, they have a capricious god who has a double standard.
Well, since there are several brands of Judaism, I'd conclude that your observation is hypocritical.
 

American Gothic

Active member
they only keep those laws they feel like.
those in Messiah are not under Mosaic law, they have a brand new law, totally separate from the Law of Moses

sometimes called
"the law of Christ" Galatians 6:2 or
"the law of the Spirit of life" Romans 8:2

while certain commands can be found repeated in various laws, that does not mean the law of Moses is still in force
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
those in Messiah are not under Mosaic law, they have a brand new law, totally separate from the Law of Moses
Yet Jesus himself says he didn't come to do away with the Mosaic law, correct?
while certain commands can be found repeated in various laws, that does not mean the law of Moses is still in force
If there is no effective difference, then they're still in force. Murder is still murder. The spirit doesn't allow one to hate their neighbor, therefore those who do not hate, do not murder either. Higher spiritual laws do not negate the letter of the law. Those who do not lust, do not commit adultery, fornicate, or even violate the dietary laws.
 

American Gothic

Active member
There is no theocratic Jewish society today. But God still holds us responsible for keeping the Laws.
Only if one is under the Mosaic covenant -
for example, nothing that Jesus taught concerning the Mosaic covenant and Law has ever applied to me personally
that would be the majority of what he taught (either directly or parables) during His public ministry

God still holds us responsible for keeping the Laws
Christian thought wise, that would not be the case -
if the penalty for Sin has been dealt with with finality, then no, God is not holding any transgression of Mosaic law against you
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Christian thought wise, that would not be the case -
if the penalty for Sin has been dealt with with finality, then no, God is not holding any transgression of Mosaic law against you
Actually it does seem to depend on which Christian you talk to. There are Christians who are pretty clear that if you go out and murder someone, your relationship with God is broken and you are bound for hell. (I'm talking about universal law right now, not laws that apply only to Jews.)
 

American Gothic

Active member
Actually it does seem to depend on which Christian you talk to. There are Christians who are pretty clear that if you go out and murder someone, your relationship with God is broken and you are bound for hell.
my view is that the NT view is God is not holding your sins against you, regardless of if you know or acknowledge or agree with that
at least as an eternal Life issue
some Christians have as hard a time resting in the New covenant and all that goes with it, most likely because they are influenced by the Mosaic
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Is anyone lawfully being held accountable for transgressing Mosaic law today? Romans 4:15
There is a law, and Paul clearly points out that: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;” Romans 2:12

Moreover there is no law against keeping the Mosaic law, nor is there anything to indicate that Paul sees the law done away with. He only refers to the "the law that was against us"; the "law that was added because of transgressions" which is an explicit reference to the sacrificial system.. See Deuteronomy 31:26 for more.
 

American Gothic

Active member
There is a law, and Paul clearly points out that:
Moreover there is no law against keeping the Mosaic law, nor is there anything to indicate that Paul sees the law done away with.

You might observe stuff from the law of Hammurabi today, but you can't Keep it as there is no Lawful being held accountable for transgressing it.
If one can't Mosaic lawfully be held accountable for transgressing Mosaic law, then there is no Mosaic law in effect.

Is God still holding your sins against you?
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
You might observe stuff from the law of Hammurabi today, but you can't Keep it as there is no Lawful being held accountable for transgressing it.
Any examples? I don't see what point you're trying to make here.
If one can't Mosaic lawfully be held accountable for transgressing Mosaic law, then there is no Mosaic law in effect.
Again, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Could you make a clear point?
Is God still holding your sins against you?
You will have to ask him. Perhaps you might make a point that doesn't involve me personally as Ad Hominem doesn't really work towards proving anything.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
my view is that the NT view is God is not holding your sins against you, regardless of if you know or acknowledge or agree with that
at least as an eternal Life issue
some Christians have as hard a time resting in the New covenant and all that goes with it, most likely because they are influenced by the Mosaic
The Catholics, the EO's, the Anglicans, the Lutherans, the Methodists, the Church of the Nazarene... There are as many protestant denominations that are arminian as are calvinist. Your view is the minority. And I don't see ANY of the churches I just listed keeping kosher, so no, its not because they follow Mosaic law.
 

American Gothic

Active member
Again, I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Could you make a clear point?
If one can't lawfully be held accountable for transgressing a law, then the law is not in effect. It's pretty simple.
If I falsely accuse someone of murder, what is going to hold me accountable for breaking that stipulation of the law of Hammurabi?
Nothing, as there is not enforcement of that law in effect today or where I live.

Paul said where there is no law there is no transgressions, and the reverse is true - if there is not transgressions being lawfully held
accountable, there is no law in effect.

Mosaic law requires sacrifices in the Temple for transgressions.
If that is no longer required, then Mosaic law is no longer in effect. God didn't change the commands.
 
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