Christian inconsistancy about the Law

[Rachel Redux]

GINOLJC, tot All,
First thanks fopr the reply, second, ERROR, for in your OP, we see where you made your mistakes. for the Law is not Made for a RIGHTIOUS Man. the law is alway pointing out your sin. for by it is the KNOWLEDGE of Sin, but what you don't want to accept of the NEW TESTAMENT is this, Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Well, here's the rub, Mr PICJAG101G...Paul did contradict Jesus/Yeshua and the Apostle John.

Jesus said he didn't come except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He showed mercy to the Gentiles but wasn't sent for us.
When Jesus sent out the Apostles (Matthew 20:5) he told them not to go to the Gentiles.

On the other hand, we know that Gentiles would be accepted into Jesus's fold because he, himself said so.
Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”

And

Matthew 22:9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’

Now the harder news...
both Jesus and John said the Law is not done away with.
Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets and the Law will stand until heaven and earth pass away. He said that whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Is that you?)

John said "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome." (1 John 5:3)

And

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected." (1 John 2:3-6)

Jesus also railed against the Pharisees and called them broods of vipers and whitewashed tombs.
The Jews broke their covenant.
The Temple was destroyed.
So we can't obey all the Law the way God told us to. We're living in a period of grace, waiting for our Messiah to return and put the new covenant into full force.

 

[American Gothic]

the Law is not done away with.

He didn't say He was there to eliminate the Law, but He did say He came to complete it.
The end of the road under the Law is death OR you understood that and you rested your hope in God's mercy and Grace,
and the promised and prophesied work of the Messiah.
David would have been condemned under the Law, but he was already a person of Faith (he knew he had already been given eternal Life)

Eternal life has always been given thru Righteousness of faith, not obedience -
any true obedience is a result of an already saving faith

God is Spirit, and He wants people who will worship Him in spirit and in truth -
any continual trying for Physical obedient perfection is just not good enough or impressive to Him.
There has to be for us a relationship with God better than endless Repentance/Confession/Penance/Forgiveness/Repeat

and there is.

 

[Open Heart]

He didn't say He was there to eliminate the Law, but He did say He came to complete it.

This is one of the most unbelievably illogical statements that Christians make, this idea that the law can be fulfilled or completed in any way other than every Jewish person obeying it.

 

[American Gothic]

This is one of the most unbelievably illogical statements that Christians make, this idea that the law can be fulfilled or completed in any way other than every Jewish person obeying it.

You just have a view different than what other Jews have had on the issue.

under the Mosaic covenant Law, Failure and being held Accountable is part of the Law - it is inevitable and always there
any law under New covenant has to be better than that

 

[Rachel Redux]

He didn't say He was there to eliminate the Law, but He did say He came to complete it.

That isn't really what he said. He said that he came to fulfill the Law.
Example:
Blue Letter Bible:
Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel:

Please look at a Strong's Concordance and get the definition of fulfill. It doesn't mean to do away with, it means to perform properly.
Besides, would this make sense?
I came not to destroy the Law but to put an end to it....?

Having said that, we can't keep the Law in many cases without the Temple. The 10 commandments is a different story.

 

[Rachel Redux]

He didn't say He was there to eliminate the Law, but He did say He came to complete it.
The end of the road under the Law is death OR you understood that and you rested your hope in God's mercy and Grace,
and the promised and prophesied work of the Messiah.
David would have been condemned under the Law, but he was already a person of Faith (he knew he had already been given eternal Life)

Eternal life has always been given thru Righteousness of faith, not obedience -
any true obedience is a result of an already saving faith

God is Spirit, and He wants people who will worship Him in spirit and in truth -
any continual trying for Physical obedient perfection is just not good enough or impressive to Him.
There has to be for us a relationship with God better than endless Repentance/Confession/Penance/Forgiveness/Repeat

and there is.

Yes, salvation comes through faith in Yeshua. However I personally believe that we're still expected to obey God's commands.

 

[American Gothic]

Besides, would this make sense?
I came not to destroy the Law but to put an end to it....?

"For Messiah is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans10:4

 

[Rachel Redux]

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans10:4

That's Pauline gospel, not Jesus's.

 

[Open Heart]

You just have a view different than what other Jews have had on the issue.

please articulate what you think this difference is

 

[shnarkle]

Having said that, we can't keep the Law in many cases without the Temple. The 10 commandments is a different story.

The 10 commandments is the same story. The Temple was for sacrifice which if anyone knows their bible was for transgressions of the law, not for keeping the law. Therefore, the Temple is not required to keep God's commandments. It is required to render sacrifices for those who continue to sin.

 

[American Gothic]

If anyone thinks they have to or wants to do Mosaic law, I'd encourage them to pursue that with gusto
do it All

I only take issue if someone says that I have to

 

[101G]

Jesus said he didn't come except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He showed mercy to the Gentiles but wasn't sent for us.
When Jesus sent out the Apostles (Matthew 20:5) he told them not to go to the Gentiles.

go to the JEWS "First". was it not foretold in the tanakh, that the Gentiles are to be preached to? lets see, Isaiah 42:1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

and, Isaiah 42:6 "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;" AND WHAT DID PAUL THE APOSTLE OF THE LORD JESUS SAY? Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." Acts 13:47 "For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth."Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

well it seems Mrs Rachel Redux, you're in ERROR here.

Now the harder news...
both Jesus and John said the Law is not done away with.
Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the Law or the prophets and the Law will stand until heaven and earth pass away. He said that whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Is that you?)

NO, not ME... LOL, LOL, LOL, ... YIKES!.... (smile). listen, Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." SO, HOW DO WE CHRISTIANS ESTABLISH THE LAW? BY DOING WHAT GOD SAY, listen, Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

the LAW of God is FAITH, and without it, you cannot please God.

so Mrs.. Rachel Redux, you're in ERROR again,

now as for as the LAW being abolish..... for christians yes, listen, 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"
1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"

Understand, our, (the Christians, RIGHTEOUSNESS is in Jesus the Christ), and the Law, which is not abolish FOR "SINNERS", will be JUDGE by the LAW, listen,
Romans 2:5 "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;" Romans 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" LISTEN! Romans 2:7 "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" Romans 2:8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath," Romans 2:9 "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;" (READ THAT AGAIN). Romans 2:10 "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:"(READ THAT AGAIN ALSO).

Romans 2:11 "For there is no respect of persons with God."

Romans 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (THAT MEANS YOU, WHICH NO ONE KEPT... (SMILE). UH o!.

Romans 2:13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."
Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" HELLO, HELLO, HELLO....
Romans 2:15 "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" bingo

SEE, THE LAW IS FOR ... Y.O.U. . .... LOL, LOL, LOL, NOT ME. see, when one teach false doctrine, you will meet the law, so who is the LAW made For? listen, 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," LISTEN CLOSLEY, 1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" well tha tgot you, and any other believing Jew or Gentile trying to keep the Law..... LOL. Oh my.

so Mrs.. Rachel Redux, you're in ERROR again,

"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected." (1 John 2:3-6)

well that again got many Jews and Gentiles alike, for many reject the NT scriptures, which means they REject ... "GOD".

Jesus also railed against the Pharisees and called them broods of vipers and whitewashed tombs.
The Jews broke their covenant.
The Temple was destroyed.
So we can't obey all the Law the way God told us to. We're living in a period of grace, waiting for our Messiah to return and put the new covenant into full force.

understand the Mosic Law was ADDED, again, it was ADDED, to show us our sins. for by the the law is the KNOWLEDGE of "Sin". Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

as I have been saying and will say, Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

understand the the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God WITHOUT the law, again without the law is manifested in HIM... JESUS the Christ, God himself in Flesh. Romans 3:21 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;"

witness by the Law, Deuteronomy 18:15 "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;". fulfilment, John 1:45 "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." and just one more, Acts 3:19 "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;"Acts 3:20 "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:"Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."Acts 3:22 "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you."Acts 3:23 "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."Acts 3:24 "Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days."Acts 3:25 "Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."Acts 3:26 "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

thanks for the reply.....

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[101G]

If anyone thinks they have to or wants to do Mosaic law, I'd encourage them to pursue that with gusto
do it All

I only take issue if someone says that I have to

Correct, because the Jews are going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS from an OLD COVENANT and a OLD LAW, (which none could keep), for our Brother James states, James 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

that is not for God's People. for we have a new Covenant of FAITH, which in Christ we keep the Law Of Love in God, which is Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

when one do these things, (outline in red), one has obeyed God. .... in Christ Jesus.

My Jewish friends just don't want to accept the NEW WAY, but proverbs makes it clear, Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Proverbs 14:13 "Even in laughter the heart is sorrowful; and the end of that mirth is heaviness."
Proverbs 14:14 "The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself."
Proverbs 14:15 "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going."
Proverbs 14:16 "A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident."Proverbs 14:17 "He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated."Proverbs 14:18 "The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge."

PICJAG, 101G.

 

[American Gothic]

NEW WAY Law of Love

a Tabernacle/Temple is required for keeping Mosaic law
certain egregious transgressions of the basic 10 commandments
could potentially get someone condemned to physical death
just the 10 alone are no joke

it would be better to not steal from others because you Love them
than to try to not steal from others because a God the people were
too afraid to approach at Sinai commands it under threat of curses

it's just a better way of living, and relating to each other and to God
all around

 

[Open Heart]

Having said that, we can't keep the Law in many cases without the Temple. The 10 commandments is a different story.

We are not responsible for those laws which are impossible for us to keep. With regards to the lack of the temple, Hosea 14:2 "So will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips."

 

[Open Heart]

a Tabernacle/Temple is required for keeping Mosaic law

Hosea 14:2 So will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.

 

[American Gothic]

Hosea 14:2 So will we render for bullocks the offering of our lips.

Hosea or Sanhedrin gets to radically change the whole Law permanently? no
you have no need now or ever for a rebuilt Temple?
tell the Temple Institute already


substituting due to circumstance is just not going to suffice
granted, God did give a make up day for Passover a month later if it was missed

the more sensible reality would be God is not holding unavoidable transgressions against

We are not responsible for those...which are impossible for us to keep

duh
you haven't said they are no longer required under the Law
just that you can't do them currently
doesn't matter as Mosaic sacrifices are illustrative at best
God doesn't need anything from you, so they are only ever for your good somehow, not His

He does want us to understand we are not Him, or His equal, and never can be
you still have not kept All of the Law, as was promised Exodus 19:8

 

[Open Heart]

you haven't said they are no longer required under the Law

whether we actually are to obey a law has complications. For example, if I need to violate shabbat in order to savea life, I'm REQUIRED to.

Basically, it is unlawful to offer sacrifice anywhere but the Temple. Thus, I am actually being obedient in this case by not making a sacrifice.

But, this needs to be said with the knowledge that the IDEAL is for there to be a temple, and sacrifices offered.

 

[American Gothic]

it is unlawful to offer sacrifice anywhere but the Temple. Thus, I am actually being obedient in this case by not making a sacrifice.

that is a stretch IMO
God affirmed the relation of Blood to the destiny of the Soul Leviticus 17:11 (ie. eternal Life)

it is necessary for a place in the World to Come, the Kingdom Age, Heaven however one might view it

 

[101G]

a Tabernacle/Temple is required for keeping Mosaic law
certain egregious transgressions of the basic 10 commandments
could potentially get someone condemned to physical death
just the 10 alone are no joke

it would be better to not steal from others because you Love them
than to try to not steal from others because a God the people were
too afraid to approach at Sinai commands it under threat of curses

it's just a better way of living, and relating to each other and to God
all around

AGREED, this is why I invest in two words in this Grace that we live in.... A. "Relationship", and B. "Fellowship".

in LOVE, we have a "Relationship" with one another, for we all have one FATHER.

in LOVE, of that "Relationship" with one another, we also enjoy each other in "Fellowship", even when we do one wrong, Forgiving one another, in the bonds of PEACE, because the LOVE of God, the "HOLY Spirit will not allow us to treat one another in a bad way..... "repent", and have mercy on each orther. for there is no defence against LOVE. for love conquer all. LOVE want let you have ill feeling against one another, or do your brother or sister wrong. but but LOVE promote fellowship, it's long suffering, and it will keep one's mouth closed when need, even if one believe that they are right.......

so Yes, I agree with you totally here.

PICJAG, 101G.