Christian inconsistancy about the Law

American Gothic

Active member
God requiring things of you, and then deliberately not having them available for you to be able to do
but then still holding all this against you would be grossly unfair

the other option is God is not holding law transgressions and sins against you anymore (ie. New covenant)
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
God requiring things of you, and then deliberately not having them available for you to be able to do
but then still holding all this against you would be grossly unfair

the other option is God is not holding law transgressions and sins against you anymore (ie. New covenant)
God does not hold us responsible to obey those commands that are impossible to obey, such as making sacrifices at a non-existent temple. You've been told this before. There are however, plenty of other commands that we are still able to obey, and those he holds us responsible for.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
If one can't lawfully be held accountable for transgressing a law,
All are held accountable. It's referred to as The Day of the Lord, or the Day of Judgement.
then the law is not in effect. It's pretty simple.
You're conflating those who are immoral with those who are moral. The Mosaic law is for a moral people. Those who are outside the law are immoral, and " will perish outside the law."
If I falsely accuse someone of murder, what is going to hold me accountable for breaking that stipulation of the law of Hammurabi?
Matthew 12:36 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Nothing, as there is not enforcement of that law in effect today or where I live.
I seriously doubt your claims. Prove it.
Paul said where there is no law there is no transgressions, and the reverse is true - if there is not transgressions being lawfully held
accountable, there is no law in effect.
That's not the reverse. The reverse is where there are transgressions, there is a law that is transgressed.
Mosaic law requires sacrifices in the Temple for transgressions.
Yes, and those sacrifices point to Christ's sacrifice which is the only sacrifice that covers sin.
If that is no longer required, then Mosaic law is no longer in effect.
It is always and everywhere required to cover sin. Those who commit sins that are not covered, are damned.
God didn't change the commands.
Agree. Therefore, they're still in effect.
 

American Gothic

Active member
All are held accountable
Not everyone has been covenantaly (sic) obligated to keep Mosaic law, so that law can't be the basis of the Judgement.
Noahide law is more universal in that regard.
We shouldn't try to apply Mosaic law to those that it doesn't lawfully apply.

You're conflating those who are immoral with those who are moral. The Mosaic law is for a moral people. Those who are outside the law are immoral, and " will perish outside the law."
Doesn't matter what law is used or in effect, any law will only show that we are not as Righteous as God is.
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
Not everyone has been covenantaly (sic) obligated to keep Mosaic law, so that law can't be the basis of the Judgement.
As I already pointed out, those who are outside the Mosaic covenant necessarily will perish outside the law.
Noahide law is more universal in that regard.
Whatever. The point remains.
We shouldn't try to apply Mosaic law to those that it doesn't lawfully apply.
I'm not. I'm pointing out that those who are outside, perish outside the law.
Doesn't matter what law is used or in effect,
At least you've finally come around to accepting that the law is in effect.
any law will only show that we are not as Righteous as God is.
Granted, yet this also supports the fact that the law is valid and in effect.
 

American Gothic

Active member
At least you've finally come around to accepting that the law is in effect

My view is Noahide law and law of Christ are in effect.
the Mosaic covenant was conditional, was broken, and the Mosaic law became inoperative
God can't Rightly judge All people using a law that is not longer in operation, and which was temporarily
given only to and required of a specific People for a limited time
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
My view is Noahide law and law of Christ are in effect.
the Mosaic covenant was conditional, was broken, and the Mosaic law became inoperative
God can't Rightly judge All people using a law that is not longer in operation, and which was temporarily
given only to and required of a specific People for a limited time
I've already addressed and refuted these claims. Repeating your position doesn't advance the discussion. Perhaps you might try addressing what I've already posted. You don't seem to have any idea of the purpose of the law in the first place, and your interpretation of the new testament writings bears no resemblance to the texts themselves.

You're coming up with a theory that contradicts what the bible plainly presents which is the distinction between the moral law and the ceremonial law.


THE GREAT MORAL LAW
THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).15.
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).16.
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).17. "Made nothing perfect" (Heb. 7:19; Heb. 9:9).

it should also be noted that the New Covenant is explicitly for the tribes of Israel and Judah (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:25-27; Hebrews 8:9,10)
 

American Gothic

Active member
I've already addressed and refuted these claims. Repeating your position doesn't advance the discussion. Perhaps you might try a.


THE GREAT MORAL LAW
THE CEREMONIAL LAW
1. Called the "Law of the Lord" (Isa. 5:24).1. Was called the "law of offerings and sacrifices." (Heb 9:9, Lev. 7:37-38).
2. Called "the Royal Law" (James 2:8,10-12).
(At the time James was writing, the Old Testament was considered the only Scripture.)
3. Will be the standard in the Judgment (Ja. 2:10-12; Rom. 2:12,13; Eccl. 12:13,14).3. Judges no man (Col. 2:14-16).
4. Written with the finger of God, on stone (Deut. 4:13; Ex. 31:18; Ex. 32:16).4. Written by Moses in a book (2 Chron 35:12).
5. Placed inside of the Ark in the Sanctuary (Ex. 40:20).5. Placed in a pocket on the outside of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26).
6. Points out sin (Romans 7:7). A mirror (James 1:23).6. Symbolized Christ’s Act of sacrifice, and work of atonement (John 1 29,36).
7. Where there is no law, there is no sin therefore the law existed before sin. (1 John. 3:4; Rom. 4:15). Lucifer sinned when he broke God’s law.7. Was added "because of sin" (Gal. 3:19).
8. Is not burdensome (1 John 5:3). Called "the law of liberty" (James 2:12).8. Was a "yoke of bondage". (Gal. 5:1, Acts 15:10).
9. Is "holy, just and good" (Rom. 7:12).9. Was "carnal" or "fleshly". (Heb. 7:16).
10. "Till heaven and earth pass away, no part will be done away with or changed (Matt. 5:18)10. Was taken away (Heb. 10:9), annulled (Heb. 7:18), abolished (Eph. 2:15), made obsolete (Heb. 8:13), changed (Heb. 7:12).
11. Is perfect (Psalm 19:7; Romans 7:12).11. Was a "shadow" of the real "things to come" (Col. 2:17, Heb. 8:6, Heb. 9:9).
12. Is "established" (Romans 3:31).12. Is "obsolete" (Heb. 8:13).
13. Is "the whole duty of man" (Eccl. 12:13; John 15:10.13."Let no man judge you in regard to ... a festival or a new moon or (ceremonial) sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16-17).
14. Is built upon principles of supreme love for God and love for our fellow man (Ja. 2:8-12; Matt. 22:36-40; Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18).14.Is a beautiful prophecy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and Heavenly mediation.
15. Is written in our hearts by the Spirit of Christ when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour (Heb. 8:8-10; Rom. 2:15; 2 Cor. 3:3; Jer. 31:33,34).15.
16. Carries a promise ( Jer. 31:33,34; Gal. 3:29).16.
17. Converts the soul (Psalm 19:7).
God does not divide the Mosaic law, it is a complete unit you have "refuted" jack
Deuteronomy 12
judgement would be by the WHOLE of that law or none of it
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
God does not divide the Mosaic law, it is a complete unit you have "refuted" jack
Deuteronomy 12
God gives commands to be kept, and when they are not kept, he "adds" laws to deal with transgressions of those commands. Consider yourself refuted. QED.

You really can't see the difference between keeping the law and the laws put in place to deal with transgressions???

Deuteronomy 31:26
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
God gives commands to be kept, and when they are not kept, he "adds" laws to deal with transgressions of those commands. Consider yourself refuted. QED.

You really can't see the difference between keeping the law and the laws put in place to deal with transgressions???

Deuteronomy 31:26
Being Delivered from the Law

In Romans 7:1-6 Paul tells the story of a woman who is "loosed from the law to her husband." He concludes his illustration by stating, "Now we are delivered from the law." Some people have used this story to say that Christians do not need to keep God’s law. But in fact, the story teaches the exact opposite.

In the illustration, Paul explains that "the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man."

"Wherefore," Paul concludes, "ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. "

To keep us from misunderstanding his point, Paul prefaced the story by declaring that "the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth." That is clear. Even in the illustration he affirms that "if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress." These facts show that Paul considered the commandments to be still binding.

Furthermore, notice that even the death of the husband does not change the law. Even after the man dies, the law still says the same thing it always said about remarriage. The law has not changed, only the woman’s relation to it. The woman is freed from the law, not because of any annulling of the law, but because there is no law against remarriage after a spouse’s death.

So it is with the one who has the power of Christ in his life. He is delivered from the law because he no longer violates the law. The law has not changed. It still requires just what it always did. But the Christian has changed. His life now exhibits the fruit of the Spirit: "Love, joy, peace,... against such there is no law"(Galatians 5:22, 23).

The problem of being "in the flesh" (Romans 7:5) lies in "the motions of sins" which are defined by the law. The problem is not the law, but sin (verses 7-13). Here is the point. We are "delivered from the law" when we become "dead to that wherein we were held" (verse 6, margin). Since it was sin which held us, only death to sin (Romans 6:2) can deliver us from the law. By experiencing such death to sin we are enabled to serve the law "in newness of the spirit" (Romans 7:6).
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
those not a part of Israel have never been under Mosaic law
False.

" both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon ALL them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW. "
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
are you under the impression that the mosaic law is for everyone?
You thought it wasn't?

"both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon ALL them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW. "
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Actually American Gothic is correct about this. If you read the Torah, you will see it written over and over, "And God said to Moses, Speak to the Children of ISRAEL." Not to everyone. Not to the world. Not to all the nations. ISRAEL. And what is Israel? Those descended from Israel maternally, and those adopted into the people via halakhic conversion.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
You thought it wasn't?

"both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that EVERY mouth may be stopped, and ALL the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall NO flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon ALL them that believe: FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission OF SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW. "
YOu think you can win this by quoting Romans to me? Don't you understand that you might as well be quoting the quran or the vedas? Romans holds no authority for me. I could sit here and try to show you how this passage doesn't really say what you think, but its not worth it. Paul would never be able to undo what God says to Moses-- "Speak to the children of ISRAEL."
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Actually American Gothic is correct about this. If you read the Torah, you will see it written over and over, "And God said to Moses, Speak to the Children of ISRAEL." Not to everyone.
Actually, you're splitting hairs. Israel was supposed to be the shining city on a hill drawing the world into God's kingdom. All of Israel was to be a kingdom of priests ministering to the rest of the world.
 

Open Heart

Well-known member
Actually, you're splitting hairs. Israel was supposed to be the shining city on a hill drawing the world into God's kingdom. All of Israel was to be a kingdom of priests ministering to the rest of the world.
Yes, that is what we are called to be. Do we always rise to the occasion? No not always. But yes, it is our calling. And because we ARE a nation of priests, we have obligations that other peoples do not have.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
YOu think you can win this by quoting Romans to me?
Win? LOL. I'm quoting an observant Pharisaic Jew's expert opinion.
Don't you understand that you might as well be quoting the quran or the vedas?
You say that like there's nothing of any worth in them. How sad.
Romans holds no authority for me.
Paul knows a lot more about the law than you ever will. So why not take an honest look at what he knows? You might learn something.
I could sit here and try to show you how this passage doesn't really say what you think,
I doubt it.
but its not worth it.
I suspect you're right.
Paul would never be able to undo what God says to Moses-- "Speak to the children of ISRAEL."
Again, you're ignoring the fact that It wasn't just the children of Israel who left Egypt, but "a mixed multitude". Anyone was and continues to be allowed to join, even slaves. Moreover, the bible is full of references of foreigners going to Jerusalem to worship during the feasts of the Lord.

So, sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not in some select club that no one else is allowed to join.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Yes, that is what we are called to be. Do we always rise to the occasion? No not always.
And that fact doesn't negate my point in the slightest.
But yes, it is our calling. And because we ARE a nation of priests, we have obligations that other peoples do not have.
Obligations to the rest of the world! Priestly duties in the temple were never in the service of other priests, but always to the children of Israel. When the children of Israel are a nation of priests, they are serving the rest of the world. This isn't as complicated as you'd like to make it.
 
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