Christianity Is A FAITH And Not Based On Empiricism And Rationalism

JAG

Active member
JAG Writes:

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.

Thoughts?


JAG

[]
 
Worth looking at this thread, when several Christians tried to tell us their faith is based on evidence, so pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.

For the record, I am with you on this one.
 
JAG Writes:

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.

Thoughts?


JAG

[]
It sounds like, in your ignorance, you're confusing the religion of Christianity, and the means by which Christianity teaches men are saved.

Of course faith is required for salvation. No Christian disputes that.

But Christianity has much historical, documentary, archaeological, and forensic evidence.
 
If reason were the means to the ultimate truth of things, then at least one American Indian prior to 1492 would have deduced the fact that God sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins and was resurrected for our justification. That required the imparting of divine revelation, the truth of which can only be accepted by means of faith, but which being grasped is known to be very reasonable indeed.

Without faith we should logically deduce a Creator, but we could never logically deduce the Incarnation nor the Atonement, nor the rich unseen realm which exists outside of the empirical realm.
 
If reason were the means to the ultimate truth of things, then at least one American Indian prior to 1492 would have deduced the fact that God sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins and was resurrected for our justification.
Funny

And that God chooses to grant revelation to some, but not all?
And that God chooses to punish those whom He chose not to grant revelation to?

You call this good and just?
 
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It sounds like, in your ignorance, you're confusing the religion of Christianity, and the means by which Christianity teaches men are saved.

Of course faith is required for salvation. No Christian disputes that.

But Christianity has much historical, documentary, archaeological, and forensic evidence.
So does Islam.
 
JAG Writes:

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.

Thoughts?


JAG

[]
Intellectual rationalization has always been a cornerstone of the Christian faith. From the age of the prophets where they needed to rationalize (apologize for - excuse away) why God's chosen were not reaping the benefits of a promise made them in a world that instead subjugated them - right up to the the advent of apologetics by the early church fathers that invented many intellectual arguments to push back the onslaught of a rational Hellenistic world that seemed to have a better handle on aspects of reality that Christianity missed as it originated from the relatively uneducated and highly superstitious area of the Levant, an area that already anticipated a supernatural Jewish messianic savior and wasn't going to let that go under any circumstances. It realized it wasn't keeping up from the get-go, and possibly couldn't be reconciled to reality at all, so with Paul, a Hellenized Jew, faith became woven along side apologetics to hedge the bet of any apologetics that to this day falls short of any absolute natural revelation (regardless of what Romans 1:20 says) as Craig realizes too.

Unfortunately, faith leads to different cultural religious conclusions as faith requires a bias as its original input, and essentially IS a maintenance of that bias at its core.
 
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Funny

And that God chooses to grant revelation to some, but not all?

Obviously. If you'd read the scriptures before chiming in, you'd know that He chooses to have those to whom He has granted His revelation to share and spread the good news.

And that God chooses to punish those whom He chose not to grant revelation to?

Incorrect. See Acts 17:30. How many times have I advised you not to approach a theological doctrine with such ignorance? Do you not have a Bible? If you're going to make an internet career out of bashing what you THINK is God, at least read up on Him.

You call this good and just?

Yes.
 
Obviously. If you'd read the scriptures before chiming in, you'd know that He chooses to have those to whom He has granted His revelation to share and spread the good news.



Incorrect. See Acts 17:30. How many times have I advised you not to approach a theological doctrine with such ignorance? Do you not have a Bible? If you're going to make an internet career out of bashing what you THINK is God, at least read up on Him.



Yes.
LoL... so who was assigned to the American Indian, the Aztec, the Maya, the Oriental, the Persian, the African, and the Ottoman?

Joseph Smith? Brigham Young? SteveB?

Nice try... but right there is an example of how woefully ridiculous apologetics can get.
 
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He chooses to have those to whom He has granted His revelation to share and spread the good news.
And those whom He did not choose to personally grant revelation upon?
Those whom He knows will NOT be convinced by the chosen human recipients of His revelation?

They are whom He has consciously and purposefully chosen to needlessly screw over

This is neither good nor just, stiggy
 
JAG Writes:

Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System
Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.
True, except that WHEN a person becomes Born Again of the Spirit by FAITH, quite a Bit of "Empirical Evidence" will follow. Biblical FAITH, since it's ALWAYS based on God's WORD, is never "Blind".
 
Worth looking at this thread, when several Christians tried to tell us their faith is based on evidence, so pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.

For the record, I am with you on this one.
It is based on evidence.
That doesn't mean that faith is not a requirement.

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

That looks like an evidence resulting claim by Jesus to me.

Phi 4:6-9 WEB 6 In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report: if there is any virtue and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 Do the things which you learned, received, heard, and saw in me, and the God of peace will be with you.

That looks like an evidence resulting claim to me.

From the chapter that the faith statement is made.

Heb 11:1-40 WEB 1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen. 2 For by this, the elders obtained approval. 3 By faith we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had testimony given to him that he was righteous, God testifying with respect to his gifts; and through it he, being dead, still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away, so that he wouldn’t see death, and he was not found, because God translated him. For he has had testimony given to him that before his translation he had been well pleasing to God. 6 Without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to him, for he who comes to God must believe that he exists, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned about things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared a ship for the saving of his house, through which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went. 9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith even Sarah herself received power to conceive, and she bore a child when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore as many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as innumerable as the sand which is by the sea shore, were fathered by one man, and him as good as dead. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 If indeed they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had enough time to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. 17 By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his only born son, 18 to whom it was said, “Your offspring will be accounted as from Isaac,” 19 concluding that God is able to raise up even from the dead. Figuratively speaking, he also did receive him back from the dead. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to share ill treatment with God’s people than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he looked to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, that the destroyer of the firstborn should not touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as on dry land. When the Egyptians tried to do so, they were swallowed up. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute didn’t perish with those who were disobedient, having received the spies in peace. 32 What more shall I say? For the time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets— 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked out righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, grew mighty in war, and caused foreign armies to flee. 35 Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, not accepting their deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Others were tried by mocking and scourging, yes, moreover by bonds and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned. They were sawn apart. They were tempted. They were slain with the sword. They went around in sheep skins and in goat skins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering in deserts, mountains, caves, and the holes of the earth. 39 These all, having been commended for their faith, didn’t receive the promise, 40 God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

Examples of faith.
 
The Church.



Strike One!



Strike Two!



STEEERIKE THREE!

Go back to the dugout. And don't pull a Darryl Strawberry and take out your frustrations for whiffing on the water cooler.
So where was the 1st century Christian Church of the American Indian, the Aztec, the Maya, the Oriental, the Persian, the African, and the Ottoman and all those long dead non-Christian souls who await their judgement having never been saved through Jesus but adhered instead to their cultural beliefs unopposed and unknowledgeable of Christianity, "remaining in darkness" to the last breath?

Go ahead. Make a guess. Throw out a theory. Give us a non-biblical apologetic in real-time. Let's see how the sausage is made.
 
So where was the 1st century Christian Church of the American Indian, the Aztec, the Maya, the Oriental, the Persian, the African, and the Ottoman

I had no idea that you were so ignorant of world history. Let me give you a short lesson to hopefully make you realize the inherent ignorance displayed in that question:

The Church is made up of people.
People in the first century were unaware of the existence of the Aztecs, the Mayans, and the American Indian.
And even if they had been, they had no transportation that could take them to a continent thousands of miles away, separated by a vast ocean.
That was not possible until the sixteenth century, a little after 1492. Remember that date? When Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue? Is it starting to come back to you now?

As far as Persians and Orientals, I'm surprised that you are also ignorant of the Church's evangelism in those areas.

Did you just never take an elementary course in World History, or is this a matter of your poor memory?
 
People in the first century were unaware of the existence of the Aztecs, the Mayans, and the American Indian.
So the Aztecs, the Mayans, and the American Indians weren't people that were aware of each other in the first century?

And why would god need a boat to reach so many generations of his creation before they die in the sin of wrong belief and now await judgement not having known Jesus? He squirted out a savior from a virgin. I'm sure there were some virgins among the Indians he could have found too. But for the rest it's a boat and a church.... lol.... too funny.

See how little sense your belief makes. Now apologize for it somehow. I wanna see it.
 
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