Christmas has evolved into a very non-Christian holiday

I find it interesting that the traditions we celebrate at Christmas in American are almost all pagan or secular. This does not prove or disprove anything about God or Jesus but I just think it is interesting to observe.

For example, let's list the things we associate with the Christmas holiday:
  • Christmas Tree: pagan from old German traditions (very few pine trees in Jerusalem)
  • Santa: pagan from old stories of Odin (Wotan) riding his magic reindeer to give barbarian kids presents
  • Christmas Songs: many are Christian but so many of the classic songs we sing are very pagan or secular with no mention of Jesus (Rudolph, Frosty the Snowman, I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas, I'll be Home for the Holidays, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, etc)
  • December 25: this is a pagan holiday date for celebrating the Winter Solstice - the Bible clearly says that Jesus was born no later than October because shepherds did not let their flocks roam in December
    • Luke 2:8-9. “Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.”
  • Stockings: pagan tradition as socks were hung t dry and warm by the fire in the colder German area
  • Shopping and Gifts: secular capitalism
  • Christmas Mass: Christian
  • Manger on the Front Lawn: Christian
  • Santa, Snowmen, Reindeer, and Snowflakes on the Front Lawn: secular or pagan
  • Dinner with Family: secular
People ask me how an atheist can celebrate Christmas. As you can see it is easy since only a few of the many traditional holiday activities involves Jesus in any way. Christmas is like Thanksgiving or the 4th of July for me - just a time to gather with family and have fun singing secular songs to our pagan tree.

I did enjoy watching my girls act out the Stations of the Cross every year when they went to Catholic School but I do not need that to enjoy Christmas.

:)

So I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - may 2021 bring us all better fortune than 2020.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
I find it interesting that the traditions we celebrate at Christmas in American are almost all pagan or secular. This does not prove or disprove anything about God or Jesus but I just think it is interesting to observe.

For example, let's list the things we associate with the Christmas holiday:
  • Christmas Tree: pagan from old German traditions (very few pine trees in Jerusalem)
  • Santa: pagan from old stories of Odin (Wotan) riding his magic reindeer to give barbarian kids presents
  • Christmas Songs: many are Christian but so many of the classic songs we sing are very pagan or secular with no mention of Jesus (Rudolph, Frosty the Snowman, I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas, I'll be Home for the Holidays, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, etc)
  • December 25: this is a pagan holiday date for celebrating the Winter Solstice - the Bible clearly says that Jesus was born no later than October because shepherds did not let their flocks roam in December
    • Luke 2:8-9. “Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.”
  • Stockings: pagan tradition as socks were hung t dry and warm by the fire in the colder German area
  • Shopping and Gifts: secular capitalism
  • Christmas Mass: Christian
  • Manger on the Front Lawn: Christian
  • Santa, Snowmen, Reindeer, and Snowflakes on the Front Lawn: secular or pagan
  • Dinner with Family: secular
People ask me how an atheist can celebrate Christmas. As you can see it is easy since only a few of the many traditional holiday activities involves Jesus in any way. Christmas is like Thanksgiving or the 4th of July for me - just a time to gather with family and have fun singing secular songs to our pagan tree.

I did enjoy watching my girls act out the Stations of the Cross every year when they went to Catholic School but I do not need that to enjoy Christmas.

:)

So I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - may 2021 bring us all better fortune than 2020.
An interesting post. On one thing - the manger on the front lawn vs Santa, snowmen, etc. My wife found a Christmas Decoration scavenger hunt online somewhere, so we spent an evening driving all around doing it. A bit of fun. But it caused me to pay greater attention to what people put on their lawn. We saw myriad Santas, reindeer, snowmen, sleighs, snowflakes, several Star Wars characters, penguins, polar bears, Christmas trees, packages, dogs (holding a candy cane in their teeth, if you can believe it)...and one (count them: one) manger.
 

The Pixie

Active member
I find it interesting that the traditions we celebrate at Christmas in American are almost all pagan or secular. This does not prove or disprove anything about God or Jesus but I just think it is interesting to observe.

For example, let's list the things we associate with the Christmas holiday:

  • ...
  • December 25: this is a pagan holiday date for celebrating the Winter Solstice - the Bible clearly says that Jesus was born no later than October because shepherds did not let their flocks roam in December
    ...

  • There is a theory that I find convincing (given Christmas is not actually on the solstice) that this date is used because it is exactly 9 months before Easter, with the theory that Jesus died on the anniversary of his conception, and some guy around AD 200 dated his death to March 25.
 

Furion

Active member
I find it interesting that the traditions we celebrate at Christmas in American are almost all pagan or secular. This does not prove or disprove anything about God or Jesus but I just think it is interesting to observe.

For example, let's list the things we associate with the Christmas holiday:
  • Christmas Tree: pagan from old German traditions (very few pine trees in Jerusalem)
  • Santa: pagan from old stories of Odin (Wotan) riding his magic reindeer to give barbarian kids presents
  • Christmas Songs: many are Christian but so many of the classic songs we sing are very pagan or secular with no mention of Jesus (Rudolph, Frosty the Snowman, I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas, I'll be Home for the Holidays, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, etc)
  • December 25: this is a pagan holiday date for celebrating the Winter Solstice - the Bible clearly says that Jesus was born no later than October because shepherds did not let their flocks roam in December
    • Luke 2:8-9. “Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.”
  • Stockings: pagan tradition as socks were hung t dry and warm by the fire in the colder German area
  • Shopping and Gifts: secular capitalism
  • Christmas Mass: Christian
  • Manger on the Front Lawn: Christian
  • Santa, Snowmen, Reindeer, and Snowflakes on the Front Lawn: secular or pagan
  • Dinner with Family: secular
People ask me how an atheist can celebrate Christmas. As you can see it is easy since only a few of the many traditional holiday activities involves Jesus in any way. Christmas is like Thanksgiving or the 4th of July for me - just a time to gather with family and have fun singing secular songs to our pagan tree.

I did enjoy watching my girls act out the Stations of the Cross every year when they went to Catholic School but I do not need that to enjoy Christmas.

:)

So I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - may 2021 bring us all better fortune than 2020.
The evils of Frosty cannot be overstated.

The Bumble is the perfect illustration for you on how to leave your life of scary and join Christ in real life.
 
There is a theory that I find convincing (given Christmas is not actually on the solstice) that this date is used because it is exactly 9 months before Easter, with the theory that Jesus died on the anniversary of his conception, and some guy around AD 200 dated his death to March 25.
This does not seem compelling. Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on Dec 25. This is in direct conflict with scripture. I know of nothing in The Bible that suggests Christ was born 9 months before the date of his crucifixion or resurrection. This feels like a justification and does not bear Biblical scrutiny.

It seems much more likely that Christians co-opted the mid-winter celebrations of the Germanic, Celtic, and Gallic tribes they sought to convert. Almost everything we celebrate at Christmas has nothing to do with Christ - including the date of His actual birth. I find that fascinating.

It does not really matter much in the grand scheme of things. But I find it interesting when I see Christians scream about 'the war on Christmas' when it is Christians themselves who celebrate Christ's birth on the wrong day.

:)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I find it interesting that the traditions we celebrate at Christmas in American are almost all pagan or secular. This does not prove or disprove anything about God or Jesus but I just think it is interesting to observe.

For example, let's list the things we associate with the Christmas holiday:
  • Christmas Tree: pagan from old German traditions (very few pine trees in Jerusalem)
  • Santa: pagan from old stories of Odin (Wotan) riding his magic reindeer to give barbarian kids presents
  • Christmas Songs: many are Christian but so many of the classic songs we sing are very pagan or secular with no mention of Jesus (Rudolph, Frosty the Snowman, I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas, I'll be Home for the Holidays, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas, etc)
  • December 25: this is a pagan holiday date for celebrating the Winter Solstice - the Bible clearly says that Jesus was born no later than October because shepherds did not let their flocks roam in December
    • Luke 2:8-9. “Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.”
  • Stockings: pagan tradition as socks were hung t dry and warm by the fire in the colder German area
  • Shopping and Gifts: secular capitalism
  • Christmas Mass: Christian
  • Manger on the Front Lawn: Christian
  • Santa, Snowmen, Reindeer, and Snowflakes on the Front Lawn: secular or pagan
  • Dinner with Family: secular
People ask me how an atheist can celebrate Christmas. As you can see it is easy since only a few of the many traditional holiday activities involves Jesus in any way. Christmas is like Thanksgiving or the 4th of July for me - just a time to gather with family and have fun singing secular songs to our pagan tree.

I did enjoy watching my girls act out the Stations of the Cross every year when they went to Catholic School but I do not need that to enjoy Christmas.

:)

So I wish all of you a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year - may 2021 bring us all better fortune than 2020.
Well this is a simple enough matter to answer.
Under no circumstances whatsoever should you celebrate it, regardless.
For your friends, and family members who do celebrate it, pull this complaint of yours out, and hand it to them. Then read from your own copy, out-loud, and carry on a temper tantrum about the holiday's criminal aspects.
I'm pretty confident that you'll no longer be invited to their celebrations (which don't actually incorporate any of these things you view as pagan-- which is amusing, because you yourself espouse paganistic ideas, and beliefs). and soon enough, you'll no longer receive calls, emails, texts, etc... from any of them. Leaving you out in the cold, looking for new friends, whom you can likewise rant to about this time of the year.

Until then, the rest of us will have a great time, and enjoy celebrating Jesus. Whom, himself, is the whole reason why people like us celebrate it.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Well this is a simple enough matter to answer.
Under no circumstances whatsoever should you celebrate it, regardless.
For your friends, and family members who do celebrate it, pull this complaint of yours out, and hand it to them. Then read from your own copy, out-loud, and carry on a temper tantrum about the holiday's criminal aspects.
I'm pretty confident that you'll no longer be invited to their celebrations (which don't actually incorporate any of these things you view as pagan-- which is amusing, because you yourself espouse paganistic ideas, and beliefs). and soon enough, you'll no longer receive calls, emails, texts, etc... from any of them. Leaving you out in the cold, looking for new friends, whom you can likewise rant to about this time of the year.

Until then, the rest of us will have a great time, and enjoy celebrating Jesus. Whom, himself, is the whole reason why people like us celebrate it.
So why shouldn't Mithra's birthday be celebrated, which is also the date of the latest sunrise where Santa lives, and nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus and when he was born? And where does the bible say when Jesus was born anyway?
 
Last edited:

SteveB

Well-known member
So why shouldn't Mithra's birthday be celebrated, which is also the date of the latest sunrise where Santa lives, and nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus and when he was born? And where does the bible say when Jesus was born anyway?
You can do whatever you want.

My point is that if you're going to complain about it, then don't celebrate it.
 

J regia

Well-known member

  • There is a theory that I find convincing (given Christmas is not actually on the solstice) that this date is used because it is exactly 9 months before Easter, with the theory that Jesus died on the anniversary of his conception, and some guy around AD 200 dated his death to March 25.
Without a reliable clock, however, they wouldn't be able to calculate the date of the solstice. Instead, they would have used the date of the latest sunrise to determine Mithra's birthday, by observing the date for the most southerly sunrise using shadows from marker stones or sticks. This occurs near the Arctic circle on 25th December, and only coincides with the solstice at the North Pole.
 

The Pixie

Active member
Without a reliable clock, however, they wouldn't be able to calculate the date of the solstice. Instead, they would have used the date of the latest sunrise to determine Mithra's birthday, by observing the date for the most southerly sunrise using shadows from marker stones or sticks. This occurs near the Arctic circle on 25th December, and only coincides with the solstice at the North Pole.
Saturnalia was held on the 17th of December, not the 25th. If Christianity was re-purposing a pagan festival, that is the one we would expect it to be.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
You can do whatever you want.

My point is that if you're going to complain about it, then don't celebrate it.
We do celebrate it. We have a great time. We just leave out the religious optional extras. Christmas with Jesus is like pizza with extra cheese.
 

J regia

Well-known member
Saturnalia was held on the 17th of December, not the 25th. If Christianity was re-purposing a pagan festival, that is the one we would expect it to be.
Then presumably they would use the date of the earliest sunset at the Arctic Circle.
And similarly I presume that the first of January was chosen as the start of the year from the date of the latest sunrise in Paris.
 
Well this is a simple enough matter to answer.
Under no circumstances whatsoever should you celebrate it, regardless.
Free country - I celebrate Christmas.
For your friends, and family members who do celebrate it, pull this complaint of yours out, and hand it to them. Then read from your own copy, out-loud, and carry on a temper tantrum about the holiday's criminal aspects.
I did not think it was a tantrum. I think I was just pointing out objective facts about the pagan aspects of how we celebrate Christmas. I'm sorry if you took it as a rant. But I do not think you can prove that anything I said was not true - unless you can find Christmas Trees and Santa in The Bible then I stand by what I said.
I'm pretty confident that you'll no longer be invited to their celebrations (which don't actually incorporate any of these things you view as pagan-- which is amusing, because you yourself espouse paganistic ideas, and beliefs). and soon enough, you'll no longer receive calls, emails, texts, etc... from any of them. Leaving you out in the cold, looking for new friends, whom you can likewise rant to about this time of the year.
My Christian friends all agree with everything I said. They agree that most of our Christmas trappings are not really Christian (e.g. Christmas tree, Santa, Rudolph, gifts giving, etc). So my Christian friends and I celebrate the secular stuff together and then they go to Christmas Mass. No muss no fuss - we love each other and recognize our differences.

Believe it or not it is possible for atheists and Christians to celebrate Christmas together. Heck my Jewish and Hindu friends have Christmas trees because it is a fun winter holiday and they do not need to accept Christ into their hearts to watch 'Frosty the Snowman' with their kids.
Until then, the rest of us will have a great time, and enjoy celebrating Jesus. Whom, himself, is the whole reason why people like us celebrate it.
Cool! I'm glad for you. But maybe you could try to recognize that millions of your fellow Americans celebrate Christmas for different reasons. And that's ok. We need to remember that we can disagree and still have a nice holiday meal together. I grew up in a town that was half Jewish and I always went to Passover dinner. My Jewish friends could not care less that I was atheist - they just wanted to share a meal with me. And I love latkes and matzah ball soup.

Also - atheists, Jews, and Hindus can also hunt for Easter Eggs without believing in the Resurrection :)
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Free country - I celebrate Christmas.
.....................

I did not think it was a tantrum. I think I was just pointing out objective facts about the pagan aspects of how we celebrate Christmas. I'm sorry if you took it as a rant. But I do not think you can prove that anything I said was not true - unless you can find Christmas Trees and Santa in The Bible then I stand by what I said.
...................................


My Christian friends all agree with everything I said. They agree that most of our Christmas trappings are not really Christian (e.g. Christmas tree, Santa, Rudolph, gifts giving, etc). So my Christian friends and I celebrate the secular stuff together and then they go to Christmas Mass. No muss no fuss - we love each other and recognize our differences.
................................

Believe it or not it is possible for atheists and Christians to celebrate Christmas together. Heck my Jewish and Hindu friends have Christmas trees because it is a fun winter holiday and they do not need to accept Christ into their hearts to watch 'Frosty the Snowman' with their kids.

................................



Cool! I'm glad for you. But maybe you could try to recognize that millions of your fellow Americans celebrate Christmas for different reasons. And that's ok. We need to remember that we can disagree and still have a nice holiday meal together. I grew up in a town that was half Jewish and I always went to Passover dinner. My Jewish friends could not care less that I was atheist - they just wanted to share a meal with me. And I love latkes and matzah ball soup.



You know, I'd written up a complete response to this, and as I've thought about it, I've realized that my entire point will be lost in being argumentative.
As such, I've deleted it, and will simply say--- your focus is all wrong, and it's probably due to your never having been taught why the things we've used to include in the celebrations of Jesus' arrival to save us from our sin are in fact included.
So, here's a mother's description for her children.


Also - atheists, Jews, and Hindus can also hunt for Easter Eggs without believing in the Resurrection :)

 
Top